Thriving with Relationship OCD (with Andrew & Danielle Cohen) | Ep. 416

In this insightful episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit, Kimberley Quinlan chats with Andrew and Danielle Cohen about navigating the challenges of Relationship OCD (ROCD) through lived experience, clinical expertise, and actionable strategies for thriving in relationships.

What to Expect in This Episode:

• Discover how ROCD impacts both individuals and their relationships.
• Learn the key strategies for managing ROCD, including ERP and mindfulness.
• Hear Andrew’s personal journey of overcoming intrusive doubts and compulsions.
• Get Danielle’s advice for supporting a partner with ROCD while maintaining your own boundaries.
• Explore the importance of distinguishing genuine relationship concerns from OCD-driven fears.
• Find hope and practical tips for building stronger, healthier relationships despite OCD’s challenges.

Navigating Relationship OCD: Insights from Lived Experience and Clinical Expertise

Relationship OCD (ROCD) can profoundly impact both individuals and their relationships. In this episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit, Kimberley Quinlan speaks with Andrew and Danielle Cohen, two clinicians with lived experience of OCD, about how they’ve navigated the challenges of ROCD personally and professionally.

What Is Relationship OCD?

ROCD is a subtype of OCD that focuses on doubts and obsessions about relationships. These can include:

• Fear of being with the “wrong” partner.
• Excessive concerns about compatibility.
• Reassurance-seeking or confessing perceived faults to a partner.
• Intrusive doubts about past relationships.

As Andrew shared, ROCD often magnifies insecurities and uses emotional reasoning to create doubt, even in loving relationships.

Andrew and Danielle’s Stories: Facing ROCD Head-On

Andrew’s Journey with ROCD

Andrew described his ROCD as driven by “bitumen,” the name he gives his OCD. His experience was filled with intrusive doubts like, “Is my partner the one?” and excessive urges to confess minor issues or past mistakes to his partner.

His breakthrough came when he sought intensive therapy, including:

• Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP): Facing and resisting compulsions.
• Mindfulness Practices: Learning to observe intrusive thoughts without reacting to them.

These tools allowed Andrew to build confidence in handling life’s uncertainties without relying on compulsive behaviors.

Danielle’s Understanding of OCD

Danielle, who also experiences OCD, discussed how her familiarity with the disorder helped her recognize its role in Andrew’s struggles. As a partner, she:

• Supported psychoeducation by joining Andrew in therapy.
• Avoided accommodating his compulsions.
• Practiced mindfulness and ERP in her own journey.

Her compassionate, yet firm approach helped both her and Andrew address OCD effectively without letting it dominate their relationship.

Strategies for Managing Relationship OCD

1. Recognize OCD’s Tricks

ROCD often presents itself as a protective mechanism, convincing you that your doubts are “for your own good.” Recognizing its manipulative tactics is the first step to breaking free.

Key insight: If there’s an urgent need to act on relationship doubts, pause and assess whether OCD is at play.

2. Lean into ERP and Mindfulness

Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) is the gold standard for treating OCD. Combine it with mindfulness to:

• Allow intrusive thoughts to exist without reacting to them.
• Focus on being present in your relationship rather than chasing certainty.

Danielle’s mantra: “When in doubt, don’t try to figure it out.”

3. Build Communication and Trust

Andrew and Danielle emphasized the importance of open communication. While disagreements are normal in any relationship, distinguishing between genuine issues and ROCD-driven concerns is critical.

Pro tip: Discuss ROCD with your partner and consider joint therapy sessions to reduce accommodation and enhance understanding.

4. Don’t Strive for Perfection

Andrew highlighted the harm of “the one” myth perpetuated by media. Relationships aren’t about finding the perfect partner—they’re about growing and working together.

Reframe: Instead of searching for certainty, focus on shared values and navigating challenges as a team.

Advice for Partners of Those with ROCD

Danielle offers this advice to partners:

• Educate yourself about OCD.
• Join therapy sessions for psychoeducation and accommodation reduction.
• Stay calm and resist reacting to your partner’s compulsions.

Andrew’s additional insight: “Compulsions erode confidence. Learning to coexist with OCD builds resilience and strengthens relationships.”

Conclusion: A Hopeful Path Forward

ROCD can create significant challenges, but with the right tools—ERP, mindfulness, and open communication—it’s possible to thrive in relationships. As Andrew and Danielle demonstrate, compassion, education, and teamwork are powerful tools for overcoming OCD’s grip.

For more resources, visit Cohen OCD Therapy or explore organizations like OCD SoCal.

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Transcription: Thriving with Relationship OCD (with Andrew & Danielle Cohen)

Kimberley: Welcome everybody to your anxiety toolkit. Today we have Andrew Cohen and Danielle Cohen here. This is a particularly exciting episode because we have two people with lived experience and two people who are clinicians who treat OCD. Literally, it’s like a jam power-packed session. So thank you for both being here.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. So excited to be here, longtime listener. So I’m just happy to be a guest.

Kimberley: First time guest.

Andrew: First longtime listener. First time guest. Yes.

Kimberley: So I am particularly interested first in getting a little bit of an understanding, ’cause I only, first, I’ve known you guys for a little bit. But I only heard a bit of your story recently at a recent OCD, Southern California event. Would you be able to share with us a little bit about your lived experience? Danielle, would you go first?

Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. So I have OCD main theme, I guess it would be categorized as harm. I check a lot of things to make sure I don’t, you know, leave the stove on or leave my car unlocked, those kind of things, so that nothing bad happens to people. I’d say that’s the main one. There’s a little smattering of contamination OCD in there as well.

Kimberley: And when did that stop for you?

Danielle: I can probably trace it back to when I was like five. Honestly. With, like, some symmetry OCD, like, I would have to, like, tense up muscles in, like, certain patterns and, like, just write it on both sides for whatever reason. And then it just, yeah, gradually grew in, uh, over time and changed themes as it often does in, uh, OCD for people. Yeah.

Kimberley: Right.

Danielle: All the way back.

Kimberley: Ah,

Danielle: yeah. Perfectionism. That’s a big one.

Kimberley: Did you say perfectionism? Yeah.

Danielle: Mmm, yeah.

Kimberley: Yeah. That often kind of coexists along those specific subtypes too, right? Makes it particularly tricky.

Danielle: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Kimberley: And what about you, Andrew? Can you give us a little bit of an intro on your experience?

Andrew: Yeah, sure. First off, I had my OCD anxiety bully monster name is bitumen. So, bitumen kind of first came into the picture around 5, 4, 5 years old in form of like, more separation anxiety, really difficult time being away from my parents, mainly. Okay. And then my first kind of stint with more obsessions really started, I think, around seven or eight. And it was very much around harm coming to myself or my family. When I, for some reason, I was watching movies that I probably shouldn’t have been watching when I was seven or eight. Specifically, there’s a movie, uh, Terminator. And I loved it. I was very, very into it and would watch it over and over again, but then I just started having obsessions of like, what if this happens? You know, like what if somehow, you know, some robot is sent back in time. And I knew it was ridiculous. Like I wasn’t like going into like a delusional state, but it just felt so scary and so real.

So that was like when it got pretty bad and then it morphed more so in middle school. It kind of bit him in like went to the sidelines. I was able to stay away from home, sleep out just fine. You know, I was able to watch like those Terminator type movies, nothing really scary. And then in high school, it really, it really hit me with more, um, just right kind of, so kind of similar to Danielle. I had to kind of have this sense of evenness specifically with exercising. My OCD definitely ties in and I for sure had dealt with some anorexia as well. In, in high school and college. So I would be very ritualized with my exercise and also having to like, feel even if I was doing like dumbbell bench presses and things like that, that would lead me to stay in the gym for way longer than I would like. And it was just all really consuming. And then this might be a little TMI, but I think this is OCD. So, you know, we’ll get into the nitty gritty regarding going to the bathroom, specifically pooping. I would need to kind of have this sense of feeling completely empty and just like sitting in the toilet for, I was probably in the bathroom at its peak, probably a total of five, six hours a day broken up over like one, two hours.

Danielle: You didn’t know me then.

Andrew: No.

Danielle: Yeah.

Andrew: And, yeah, yeah. So, that, that’s kind of, you know, where it was, it was livable at that point, though. Like, I was, you know, I was in talk therapy from like 15 years old, just kind of working on anxiety. And then it really shit hit the fan, really, for me, when I was, uh, I think my last two years in college. And this is where kind of more of the moral scroop and relationship OCD combo, really. One two punched me. So I was in a, you know, a very serious relationship and, you know, I never had felt this way about a person before, you know, and I was, I felt such high highs and so much elation. It was just, it was amazing. And, you know, I being in college and partied and whatnot, you know, had a couple of incidences where I did cheat. And, you know, that’s just so not who I am. And so against my value system at the core. And, you know, I guess it, it ties in also to kind of like real event. OCD too, because, you know, when it initially happened, I didn’t go and tell her. I was like, you know what? The relationship’s new. Whatever. It’s, it’s not, you know, it’s fine. We’ll see where things go. But as the relationship got more and more serious and the more and more I cared about her, you know, I got more and more anxious and felt so guilty and shameful around the experience and ended up, you know, I think it was like maybe, Seven, eight months after the fact, just blurted out and confessed, you know, what happened and there was this whole big, you know, rupture in the relationship, obviously, and it was terrible and horrible.

Andrew: …and kind of through that experience, we worked through it and then we got, you know, we never broke up, but we were fighting. And things were rough, but then we finally, you know, got to a good place again. I remember her specifically saying like, I forgive you. It’s okay. I love you. And I remember just feeling so like, ah, it was like a hit really of something. And then, you know, OCD started being like, but wait, did you tell her the exact specifics of what happened that night? But wait, did you tell her that sometimes you’ll have thoughts about other girls too when you’re with her? Or, but wait, when you guys were kind of in a dating phase, but not really boyfriend and girlfriend, did you tell her about that time you were on Tinder? Right? And you could see it went down a very slippery slope.

And basically, we got into this horrible pattern of me confessing all of these things that have happened. Or then it also got into, did they happen? I don’t know if they happened. So I had to tell her just to be safe, right? And I would confess and there would be this whole big blow-up. And it got really, I mean, as I’m talking about it right now, it’s just like, ugh, so, uh, so icky. And I gotta say, like, for her, one of the sweetest people I’ve ever met, like the fact that she like didn’t run for the hills in this scenario because it became like a daily, multiple-time daily occurrence.

And then, like, you know, there were times where I was at UCLA where it was like so bad that my parents had to come drive down to pick me up because I was just like huddled over crying, you know, in a corner basically of her apartment or like the frat house I was living in, like in my room, and like just nonfunctional. So basically, it kind of reached its peak, if you will. We ended up breaking up, she broke up with me the summer that I graduated from college because it was just to a point where it was like everything we would talk about was me confessing or having just to sit there. And at this point, it wasn’t even like things that had actually happened at this point, right? It was all these just thoughts about other girls or other sexual things in general.

And then, you know, she broke up with me. I was basically nonfunctional. Somehow, I was able to work kind of. I was like a zombie. I was working ABA therapy. Don’t know how effective I was at that point, but thankfully a therapist I was working with at the time, Nicole Sander for a shout-out to her, great therapist, talk therapist. She was like, you know what? This kind of feels like OCD to me. I’m not a specialist, right? Like, I can work with it kind of, but this seems like a whole different level. And she thankfully referred me to your old stomping grounds, OCD Center of LA, where I worked with Lori Oakum, which I just recently found out you shared an office.

Kimberley: I know. Isn’t that so weird? The small world of that.

Andrew: Such a small world. So, you know, I was going to very intense therapy. I was going, I think, three times a week for like two, three-hour sessions. And really at that point, I was kind of just like, I’m so over this. I need to do the work. You know, this has taken over everything. And I just remember sitting in her office and filling out the Y-BOCS and being like, Holy shit, like every single, I mean not every single one, but the majority of the symptom checklist. I was like, whoa.

So then I was able to kind of trace back to like when I was seven, eight years old all the way up until I was 23 when it got really, really bad and needed like actual help. And just like, wow, bitumen has been present with me for basically as long as I can remember. So then, you know, I did some really, really hard ERP work and, you know, I actually ended up getting back together with that girl that I was with. And we were together for another, I want to say like eight months. I think in total, like between the two stints, it was like two years in total. And things were really, really good. They were awesome.

Then bitumen kind of reared its head in very loudly and there was also on top of this—and I think this is a good talking point because there’s, I think, a lot of questions related to like legit relationship concerns plus ROCD concerns and all that. So there were relationship dynamic issues, you know, this wasn’t a quote-unquote perfect relationship and there is no perfect relationship for the listeners. She’s gonna preface that, but it kind of reached this peak where I just, I was like, this is not healthy. I, I can’t do this. And I feel really, still feel really sad and guilty about how I kind of ended things, but like, looking back, I know, like, it was the right thing to do, you know.

And then I, luckily, I think, a couple of months after that, started grad school, where I met Danielle. And that kind of brings us, you know, I, I do. How much of our story do you want us to get into at this point?

Kimberley: I’d love to, because I mean, I think, and again, I want to remind listeners we’re going to flip this and then have Danielle at another episode tell her bigger story. Because I think this is so interesting, isn’t it? Like, I feel like it’s one of those choose-your-own-adventures where like, I’m hearing Andrew’s story and I’m like, no. Choose and go over to Danielle’s story and hear the other side of it. You know what I mean? So my first question is, is you both obviously knew you had OCD at that time?

Andrew: I was very vocal about it because just like at that point, so I always knew I wanted to be a therapist since I started going to therapy at like 15, but then when I found out I had OCD and then got treated and was like, oh shit, this works. I was like, okay, this is what I’m going to grad school for. So I think I was very vocal about it. Okay. I don’t know if you even brought it up.

Danielle: I, I, I knew I had it because I had been in therapy before and it was never like so bad that I needed like intensive treatment, but I knew it was there and I had a therapist that was like, you know, Nicole, she was very, she was knowledgeable, but she wasn’t a specialist and she was like, I think it’s OCD. And I was like, yeah, I think so too. Uh, and we just did kind of like brief, you know, a little bit of ERP. So I knew, but yeah, you were definitely much more vocal about it.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I think once we kind of started dating is when it more unraveled. It’s not the right word. Cause that makes it sound like it unfolded.

Danielle: That’s, yes. Things went downhill real quick.

Kimberley: So this is my question. So one of the questions that we, we have a ton of guest listeners here. So I just want to address one thing is one of the questions was, how do I overcome a relationship OCD or what is relationship OCD treatment? And so Andrew, you had received specific intensive treatment. Can you share what that was?

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely…

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, one of the biggest components of OCD treatment is the assessment process, getting diagnosed and receiving, you know, that diagnosis. And then for me, at least in my personal experience, the psychoeducation was so important, right? Learning about OCD, the doubting disease, if you will, understanding that need for certainty and, you know, oh my God, I have to know, is this the one. And then so much of, specifically with ROCD, comes these like romanticized, you know, excessive stories that we come up with of the one and the partner who’s going to be the best person ever. So really learning a lot about that, dismantling and kind of, I don’t want to say like challenging those thoughts in a way, but more so just like having that knowledge and being like, Oh, okay. I can see like how my brain is trying to trick me like that. And I don’t have to necessarily take it.

So that was a huge component for me. That was super crucial. And then the mindfulness component of it too, learning how to really step back and go into that observer mode. You know, before we even started any sort of exposures, Laura and I spent a lot of time working on a lot of mindfulness practices, kind of attention training, being able to be present and coexist with whatever’s coming up. And something that was really beneficial for me too, is because to be honest, when I, when I mindfulness and me have an interesting relationship. When I was going through the thick of it, my mom, who’s a lovely Jewish overprotective mother, who I like to think bitumen kind of like that a little bit—not that she gave me OCD—but she was always like, Oh, you know, Andrew, I hear this mindfulness thing is really, really good. You should try it. You go for a walk. Right, be mindful, be mindful. So when Laura brought that up, I was like, Are you fucking kidding me?

Kimberley: Oh, I can imagine.

Andrew: Like, this is hippy dippy bullshit. You know?

Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. And so, so that’s, that’s why I’m curious. So you had received exposure and response prevention with mindfulness. Were you the one, Danielle, did he introduce you to that treatment for your OCD as well, or had you already learned about it?

Danielle: I learned about ERP, again, very briefly with my therapist, Lori Allen. Shout out to her. Again, not a specialist, but she knew, she knew a good amount about it. And we did like, very basic ERP. The mindfulness, I would say, was a new thing as much. So, Andrew…

Kimberley: Did your mom introduce Danielle to mindfulness as well?

Andrew: Thankfully, thankfully not. It’s actually really funny. I have a very vivid memory of us sitting in bed one night and you were like stressed out about something and I like was like, can I just, can I just pull the sheet out? Let’s go over this. Cause I like have an awesome psychoeducation sheet on mindfulness that I use with clients and I was like, can we just, let’s just go through this, please.

Danielle: I don’t think I don’t think it was the right time, but…

Andrew: In bed talk, you know, classic observing, you know, all that stuff.

Kimberley: I love it. So when you guys got together, Danielle question for you, did Andrew share—well, you, either of you can answer this question—but was relationship OCD, the main issue that was explained to you or you were prepared for?

Danielle: I think so.

Kimberley: I think so because…

Danielle: You pretty early on you took me to Laura with you. So that was cool.

Kimberley: Oh, can you tell me about what that—how did that happen?

Danielle: I think it was really more preemptive. You were like, I really I have ROCD. I really like this relationship. I want it to work and here let’s like have you educated about it specifically. Meet my therapist, we’ll talk about, you know, how to respond and you—all that kind of stuff, psychoeducation.

Andrew: Cause I remember like when we were starting to get more serious, it was definitely bitumen was like really bubbling up and getting, and I was like, no, this can’t, I’m not going to allow this to get in the way of something that, you know, is really important. So like, let’s get on, you know, team Andrew here to kick the shit out of it a bit, if you will.

Kimberley: Yeah, so cool that you did that, that you guys went. And what was that like for you? So, so for you, Danielle, you got some psychoeducation about specifically relationship OCD. Did you know what that meant?

Danielle: I don’t think I like really had heard of it that much, but like, I understood that it was OCD, which I very much know. So I, it was understandable and I just translated it to that particular, my understanding to that particular theme.

Kimberley: Okay. Amazing. And so for Andrew, was it the same exact symptoms with Danielle or did it morph a little? What did it look like for in your relationship?

Andrew: So it was, it’s funny, it was kind of the same exact symptoms in a way. So the way mine manifests is I have a lot of obsessions of, should I have broken up with my previous partner? Should I have stayed with them? Would that have been a better relationship? Would I be happier? You know, would I be more fulfilled, more content? A lot of that.

So when I was with my previous partner, when ROCD really locked in, there was this—it doesn’t really matter—but basically, there was this other girl that I had a previous relationship with and it was starting to like really pop in my head all the time and really get in the way. So when we started getting more serious, my mind started going to my college girlfriend, the one that where OCD really popped up of like, Oh my God, did I allow OCD to ruin this? And, you know, is Danielle really good for me? And was this other woman, you know, better for me and all that kind of stuff. So it was starting to kind of infiltrate that.

And I noticed for me, I was wanting to like do confessions and stuff. I don’t know if I did maybe here and there, but I, yeah, we wanted to kind of just be on top of it.

Kimberley: How did that feel for you, Danielle, to know that he was having these obsessions? Some of my patients get really insecure about that. I mean, I understand if you don’t understand OCD, maybe you would, but what was your experience or what advice would you give for a partner who has a partner with relationship OCD and are having those intrusive thoughts?

Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. I’m probably not the example of that. I was very, you know, I knew OCD. I knew what it was. I have it myself. So I kind of knew more than maybe the average person would know. So therefore I wasn’t super insecure about it. I didn’t really feel, you know, jealous or anything like that. But that’s—I know that that’s not like the normal experience. The normal experience probably is to, you know, internalize that, you know, feel some type of way about it. So I would say like, definitely do psychoeducation. If your partner has a therapist, go do what we did and do, you know, some psycho ed sessions and, you know, you know, accommodation reduction sessions, read some books. That would be my advice. Cause that really, that really helped.

Andrew: Um, listen to this podcast episode, which you’re currently doing.

Kimberley: Exactly. So, okay, Andrew, so this, that’s so helpful to know. And I think you were very lucky Andrew for more reasons than one, because she’s fabulous, but you’re so lucky she understood.

Andrew: Well, so yeah, there was one situation, I’m not gonna lie, like bitumen, bitumen really was loud in the beginning, and it does have its flare-ups, but like a couple months into the relationship, something happened with us. It wasn’t even like a big deal, but you know, OCD was like, oh shit, no, no, no, no, this is bad, bail, abort, abort, abort, and I actually tried to break up with her.

Danielle: You did?

Andrew: Yeah, and she like sat—we were like talking, I was like crying. You know, I’m freaking out because I was in a whole OCD spiral and she was just like, hold on, hold on, hold on. No, no, no, no, no, we’re not, we’re not going to do this right now.

Danielle: I was like, no, I’m not letting you break up with me. Sorry. Sorry. Like, this is not on the schedule today. I’m sorry.

Andrew: This is absolutely not.

Danielle: Maybe tomorrow. We’re not breaking up today.

Andrew: And I think that was—you know, in the moment I was like, oh my God, see she’s so controlling or whatever it might be. She won’t even let me break up with her. But it’s so—and I think for people who don’t understand ROCD or OCD in general, like that can sound like, oh, is that a red flag in a relationship? But just like the obsessions I was having were just so not pertinent, you know. So I don’t know. Thank you for not allowing that.

Danielle: Oh, you’re welcome.

Kimberley: This just blows my mind. It is—okay, so wait, let me wrap my head around this. You were in a complete spiral, but you didn’t catch that it was OCD or you kind of knew it was OCD?

Andrew: I’d say like 50/50.

Kimberley: Okay.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kimberley: But you were going with the bail.

Andrew: I was fully in bitumen and I were real tight at that point. He was—he hooked me.

Kimberley: Okay. You went to her and you said we have to break up. She identified the OCD. And you said not today, we’re not breaking up today.

Danielle: Not today.

Kimberley: Perhaps tonight.

Danielle: Not today.

Kimberley: This is awesome.

Danielle: This is awesome.

Andrew: And then when some time passed, like an hour or two or even the next day, I was like, that’s good. I’m glad I didn’t do that. That would have been bad.

Kimberley: Oh my gosh. But I’m really, I’m really interested in this 50/50 that you experienced, because I think that’s such the experience. So can you tell me, for someone who—you knew what OCD was, you’d had it impact a relationship before, but bitumen, the name of your OCD, would you say was manipulative or convincing or like, what was it that got you to listen to that 50 percent to go and break up—or attempt to break up?

Andrew: Man, I think it uses, you know—and I talk about this with clients too—and honestly, just something that’s been helpful in my recovery is being able to identify like the little tricks it uses. Like it can, it can kind of be like this putting on this mask of like, no, I’m looking out for you. Like this is in your best interest, you know, like this isn’t going to be a safe or healthy relationship and you really should reconsider this.

And then if I kind of like try to challenge that in any way, or not listen, if you will—these are my non-engagement responses and whatnot—then it kind of turns up the ante and will start kind of shaming me like, you’re a fucking idiot. What are you doing? Are you going to be this abuse victim? And you know—and there’s no abuse, I want to clarify this. She’s nice. Danielle, you’re the best. I love you so much.

Kimberley: She’s nice.

Andrew: So like it, it will, it will really, really grip me in with these completely catastrophic, like, you know, like a Hollywood-esque screenplay, big-ass stories, if you will. Like, oh, you’re gonna be this abuse victim, and you’re weak, and you’re not good. So like, it’ll kind of start with like, that loving, caring, compassionate, like, I’m just looking out for the best of you. And if you don’t listen, then it’s kind of just like a spoiled asshole.

Kimberley: Oh, and that’s painful.

Andrew: It’s so painful.

Kimberley: Like, there’s a lot of criticism that you kind of, like—it sounds like you had, you were abused by bitumen too, right? Like that’s the, that’s the paradox of this, of like, it’s abusing you with mean words telling you that the nice Danielle is the problem, right?

Andrew: It’s such a paradox.

Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You actually touched on one of the questions that somebody asked, which is how to know the difference between real concerns and ROCD. How might someone wrap their head around that?

Danielle: I think a lot of times I point to—if there’s a sense of urgency, like, for example, like, I have to break up with you right now. That’s a pretty good indication that it’s OCD.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. So kind of piggybacking off that, the urgency component is a fun way to identify bitumen in the sense of, you know, at the end of the day, our brain’s trying to protect us, you know, it has no ill intent. It wants to prevent bad things from happening to us, whether that’s literally life-threatening things or just uncomfortable feelings. Yeah. Right. So urgency is always going to be there. And I always kind of take the approach of, look, if it’s legit, not a life-or-death situation, if you’re not standing next to a fire or, you know, if someone’s not pointing a gun at your head or whatever it might be, or you’re not actively being in an abusive relationship, you’re not being hit, you know, emotionally, verbally attacked, then it’s okay to wait to make a decision. Right? Like, let’s not—and there was another question I think about, like, what do I do if relationship OCD is really loud and I don’t want to break up? And this kind of ties into that too. You know, like pause, wait, you know, delay. I love the delay, the compulsion. That’s one right tools for myself and giving the clients.

Kimberley: I love that.

Andrew: But so, so the urgency component. Also, another thing too, is it’s important to note that like the obsessions or the doubts that one has when they have ROCD—they’re normal in the sense of like, relationships are difficult, whether it’s, and I think with relationship OCD, it’s important to note that it’s not just intimate relationships, right? It’s family relationships, so parent-child, siblings, whatever it might be. It can even be one’s relationship with God, right? Or some spiritual thing, like how do I know I’m connected enough to God, right?

So, it’s normal to have these doubts, right? And if there is a concern that’s really bothering you, that’s kind of eating at you a bit, it’s okay to talk about it with your partner. Now, what OCD likes to do is it likes to be extra and excessive. So like, you know, at times does Danielle, yes, she is nice, but there’s certain times she snaps.

Danielle: Yeah.

Andrew: As we all do.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: Right? Well, your OCD, which you’ll talk about in another episode, Chester, like—and that’s the kind of the dynamic of like when Chester goes off, it triggers bitumen and vice versa. Living in that. So when that happens, I do think it’s important when we’re both calm to be like, Hey, like what happened and address it, right?

But what I do know is if we do come to a resolve, bitumen will be like, wait, but that didn’t feel just right.

Kimberley: Or…

Andrew: You need to talk about it again. Like this, something’s off, right? And when it’s like, it’s been addressed, but then it keeps coming up, I like to say like, that’s when we want to treat it more like OCD. Let’s allow the thoughts to be there. Let’s really put our energy into the relationship, lean in, get closer, you know, those kind of things.

Kimberley: So, Danielle, post-fight or post-disagreement, you’ve maybe gone through a good resolve or maybe not a great resolve—like I think we don’t always do it perfectly. How do you know if Andrew is beginning to be compulsive and what do you do?

Danielle: Well, one, he’ll be very quiet, which if you knew him—which you do—but like listeners, he’s not quiet.

Andrew: No.

Danielle: So if he’s quiet, something’s going on up here.

Andrew: Yeah.

Danielle: That’s an indicator. Like when he’ll just say like, I can’t even think of an example, but when you say something about our relationship or about me, I’m like, that’s a compulsion.

Andrew: So it happened last night, actually, yes. When we were watching—what was the show?

Danielle: Oh, the show we watched.

Andrew: Yeah, with the Jewish rabbi and the shiksa.

Danielle: Nobody wants this. Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Nobody wants this.

Andrew: Nobody wants this. We were sitting there watching it, and you know, there’s a scene in it where the rabbi’s son introduces his shiksa—by the way, shiksa to the listeners means a non-Jew. Basically, yeah. Introduces this girl to his very Jewish mother and she’s like being horribly mean to him, her, I mean, and just like not invited because she wants him to marry a Jew. And then, you know, she’s like, you know, that’s good. I’m going to do that. If Asher, our son, brings home a non-Jew, a goyim, a shiksa. And then you’re like, I know she’s joking, right? Partly. But then my OCD was like, Oh my God, is she like not an inclusive person? You know, does this mean I’m with someone who is just not—you know, a good person? Would my ex do that? Would my ex do that? You know, those kinds of things. And I got really quiet. And you were like, what’s going on?

Danielle: I’m like, you’re being weird.

Andrew: I was like, you’re being weird.

Kimberley: And so you caught it pretty quick.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kimberley: And so what do you do, Andrew, when she says that? Does that make you feel more bitumen? Does bitumen get more involved? Or does that pull you out?

Andrew: No, it kind of pulls me out. It really helps unhook and ground me, honestly. Because it’s just like, oh. Yeah, let’s rein it in, right? Because another—going back to the question too of how do you know it’s like ROCD more so—if you’re like future-tripping so much and dealing with these what-if kind of scenarios too that aren’t actively happening.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: Like that is a pretty good indicator you’re also dealing with ROCD. So I was literally—my son’s 15 months old today—and I was going into, oh my God, when he brings a partner home, it’s like, Jesus, man.

Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. Like something that might happen in like 15 and a half years.

Andrew: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, majority, I would say like 95 to 99 percent of the time, I’m very good at catching bitumen. But, you know, it’s OCD and it’s tricky.

Kimberley: It can feel so real. Yeah. How do you navigate genuine relationship issues in the company of OCD? Do you have parameters or rules, like—or is it just that you work on communication? I’m assuming you guys have disagreements.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Which, by the way, for the listeners is normal.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: Relationships—it doesn’t mean you’re in, quote-unquote, a bad or not good relationship.

Kimberley: Yes.

Andrew: That’s the only reassurance I’m giving in this podcast.

Kimberley: Ah, there you go.

Andrew: You want to start?

Danielle: That’s a hard one. I didn’t like it.

Andrew: Well, I think it’s actually a good example. Because we’re not best communicators at times. We’re both marriage and family therapists. And sometimes we really suck at communicating. Sometimes, you know, I will totally go into—I don’t know. You know, just like yelling. Sometimes you’ll go into name-calling kind of stuff. And then it’s like we’re two, three-year-olds tantruming at each other on a playground.

Kimberley: But just make sure everybody knows.

Andrew: Yes. Yeah.

Kimberley: Because if you have to say it over and over again…

Danielle: I’m nice!

Kimberley: We’re going to start not believing you, Dani.

Danielle: I’m a good person!

Andrew: The boy who cried wolf.

Danielle: I’m being really nice about it.

Andrew: I think there is—that’s kind of the overlap between like could our communication be better? Absolutely, OCD aside. You know, I think being with a partner—we’re different humans. Yeah, we have very similar values, which is really great. But they’re not exactly the same. They’re not, you know, totally always going to line up.

So for us, I like the idea, honestly, of like the rules kind of thing around it, though, of like when to communicate it. I will say, like—she’s getting, and I’m getting a lot better at not having an argument over OCD. An over-OCD issue. Where I notice it does get a little tricky is when there is something that happens, we talk about it, and then the OCD kicks in after, and they continue visiting it. But I feel like I’m actually really good at not, you know—and, yeah. Do you want to add anything to that?

Danielle: I came up with a phrase that I want to like trademark, I think, in preparation for this podcast.

Kimberley: Okay. It’s yours. Once you, once you say it publicly, it’s yours.

Danielle: It’s mine. Sorry, everyone who might think otherwise. When in doubt, don’t try to figure it out.

Kimberley: There you go. There you go.

Danielle: If you’re having any sort of doubts, there’s no downside to responding to it with mindfulness and ERP, right? If it’s a real relationship concern, you can come back to it. If it’s ROCD, great, you just use your mindfulness and ERP skills, awesome. Right? The act or the behavior of trying to figure out your thoughts is in and of itself a lot of times a compulsion.

Kimberley: Yeah, yeah. Trademarked. You’ve got it. You’ve got it in the can.

Andrew: Asterisk to that, and this is obviously if there’s no legitimate abuse going on in the relationship, you know, any sort of safety concerns.

Kimberley: Yeah. I think it’s really hard. I mean, I’ve been married 21 years. There have been seasons in our marriage where I wasn’t even that sure if it would—there’s some hard times we’ve been through. And I’ve always thought about—we just keep making the decision to be together, and that is a huge piece. And I don’t have relationship OCD, nor does my husband, but I always feel so sad for people with relationship OCD because it gets involved in a normal relationship pattern where there are seasons of it being really hard.

Andrew: So I really appreciate what you said of you making the choice to stay, right? Because—and I think this also ties into the idea, and I love Disney, but I hate Disney for this—the idea of kind of having the one or there’s just be your soulmate. And maybe, I don’t know, anything’s possible, right? Maybe there is that. However, at the end of the day—I think John Grayson talks about this, you’ve had him on the podcast, I believe—he talks about this idea of like second-best podcast. Yes. Like the idea of like, look, there’s 7 billion people in the world. Yes, there’s someone that’s going to be better. I mean, probably, right?

At the end of the day, if you’re going to continuously search for that and not actually connect with the person, are you really ever going to get that satisfaction? And you won’t because you’re constantly doing that. And one thing that ROCD does—and it’s such a bastard because—sorry I cuss a lot for the listeners. I get passionate—it’s just so insidious is it doesn’t allow you to be present in the relationship.

Kimberley: Hmm.

Andrew: I’m not experiencing Danielle as she is.

Kimberley: Which is a nice person.

Andrew: Okay, everyone. Nice. No, but it really doesn’t allow you to experience the partner as they are because you’re experiencing them through ROCD’s eyes.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: And when I’m hooked, you know, everything it’s looking at is just so skewed.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: That’s why I think mindfulness is so crucial too, is like being able to step back and notice like, yeah, those thoughts are there, they’re happening, and I can choose to be present with my wife.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: And I think when I’m able to get into like lock into that mode, it’s like, so—I don’t know, it’s just peaceful.

Kimberley: Yeah. One of the questions that somebody asked was around intuition and instinct. And we’ve kind of touched on this already, but it was one of the questions that was—that language was used multiple times. Like how to know—and I think it goes into like this idea of the one, too—that you’re supposed to know right away. Can you speak to that, either of you?

Andrew: Funnily enough, you know-right-away kind of thing. We met during orientation our first day of grad school.

Kimberley: This is good.

Andrew: We didn’t like each other.

Kimberley: What’s not to like? She’s so nice!

Andrew: No, I was just—what was it? Well, because she was like, you know, I’m obviously loud, can be a little bubbly in your face, right? And she’s a little bit more shimmy, shimmy, shimmy and shy. I just—

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: And like, I was just like, okay, sure. And then what’d you think?

Danielle: You were in the way.

Andrew: And then we had classes together and we would just sit next to each other and just flirt a whole bunch. And, I don’t know, it just—it just kind of blossomed into actually, we grew on each other if you will.

Kimberley: But that’s so interesting because didn’t your OCD not completely go crazy over that, Andrew? Like…

Andrew: It still does. I mean, it still tries to get me hooked into that. And luckily I’ve been very good at being like, okay, yeah, maybe. Sure. Cool. Thanks, bro. Cool story.

Kimberley: Did it impact you when you had a baby?

Andrew: Yes, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember being in the hospital.

Danielle: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: What happened to you?

Danielle: With C-section and stuff, because I couldn’t do anything.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. This is just, again, how it goes so against your values.

Andrew: This is just, again, how it goes so against your values. And I like to think of myself as a very empathetic, compassionate person. Probably good, since I’m a therapist. Pretty important. Yeah. But Danielle, you know, had a very intense birthing experience. And we don’t have to get into that. That can be part of your story, too.

Kimberley: Sure, yeah.

Andrew: But basically, like, after Asher was born, I had to do a majority of the legwork—you know, changing him, feeding him, burping him, all that kind of stuff—because she was bedridden for a while. And then OCD’s like, whoa. You know, she’s not doing enough. She needs to be a better mom. You know, maybe my ex would have been a better mom. All that kind of stuff. And I’m just like trying to enjoy Asher, you know, hold my newborn. And then I’m just like, no, not going to allow it.

Kimberley: Oh, wow. It does—it can. You said insidious. It can attack. I wondered that. I’ve even had clients who felt once they had a kid that they were like now locked in with their partner, and that was really triggering for them—that like marriage was one lock-in, but then to have a baby felt like a real scary commitment.

Andrew: You can’t divorce your kid.

Kimberley: No.

Andrew: Yeah, you definitely can’t. Yeah. No, I’m actually glad you brought that up because that comes up as well, right? And thoughts of like, oh my God, like, what if, if we do get divorced, I’m still tied to her some way, and, you know, whatever it might be. Yeah, definitely gets in.

Kimberley: Yeah. Danielle, I know I want to be respectful of your time. What advice would you give to—look, I’ll give you some time for you also to share about you, and we’re going to move to your next episode, but is there any specific piece of advice you would give somebody who is the partner of somebody with relationship OCD?

Danielle: Well, I gave the advice of, you know, the psychoeducation and go to therapy with your partner and, you know, do research and all that. I think that—number one, do that. Number two, I would probably say the same thing. My cute little phrase of when in doubt, don’t try to figure it out. Like, don’t get in your head about figuring out, you know, what he’s doing or she’s doing or they’re doing. Just pause and see what happens. Don’t, you know, respond with urgency on your side either. Just take a beat and figure it out together.

Kimberley: Great. And what about you, Andrew? What advice would you give to someone suffering with relationship OCD beyond—or even repeating something you’ve mentioned today?

Andrew: Well, one, I think just the biggest piece is I feel for you. I’m giving you a virtual hug at the moment because it’s not easy. And I think going to the idea that OCD attacks the things you value the most, like, it makes sense. You know, if you really love your partner, if you really value intimate relationships and commitment and things like that, it’s going to latch onto it.

Now, on that point, you can’t control what it’s going to latch onto. So instead of trying to put your energy into this emotional thought control agenda, really lean into coexistence with your mind. Also, I’m a huge ACT fan, you know, and Russ Harris’s The Happiness Trap and a lot of that was very, very beneficial for me—the idea of thanking your mind for doing its job. I think we really go into suffering and struggling when we go into this overly emotional control agenda, trying to get rid of the thoughts, and that’s really more so where the struggle comes in. That’s what makes, I think, OCD the most difficult is that tug-of-war you play with it.

And once you kind of get to a place where you understand you don’t have to play that game, it’s extremely freeing and liberating. I’m not perfect at it. I always tell this to my clients, too—I specialize in OCD, I talk about this so much there’s days where I’m like, I don’t want to talk about OCD anymore because I talk about it so much. But, you know, I specialize in this, and I have it, and I still do compulsions. So when you do inevitably do a compulsion, it’s okay. Be compassionate with yourself. Like—and that doesn’t mean you’re letting yourself off the hook or not holding yourself accountable, but just like, look, yeah, that happened. Cool. The next moment’s different. Let’s try, let’s, you know, let’s problem-solve if we have to and figure out what we can do moving forward to get better at coexisting with OCD.

Kimberley: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Where can people hear about you guys? Where can they get in touch with you? And then, Danielle, let’s schedule Danielle’s part two of today’s conversation. Where can we get a hold of you if they wanted to?

Andrew: Yeah. So, Danielle and I were in practice together out in Westlake Village, California, kind of down the street from Kimberley. Cohen OCD Therapy. So if you just go to cohenocdtherapy.com, you can find out information about our practice. We see clients in person and virtually in all of California. We also have two associate therapists, so we’re able to offer lower fees and sliding scales. We want to be able to help as many people as we possibly can.

Additionally, OCD SoCal—Southern California—I’m on the board of that. It’s a wonderful organization, the affiliate for the International OCD Foundation. So, if you want to put all that kind of stuff in the show notes and all, I think going back to the question of, you know, what can you tell someone suffering with it, just educate yourself, surround yourself with a community that has it, because that has been one of the most healing components of having OCD is being able to be around others.

Kimberley: Yeah, who get it?

Andrew: Who get it. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in therapy where they’re talking about, you have attachment issues, you know, let’s dive into that, let’s like analyze the shit out of it, and—it don’t work.

Kimberley: It don’t work. I’m so glad you mentioned that because we should have actually gone through that is that there is a lot of therapy that can make it so much worse.

Andrew: Yeah, like, I can’t—there are countless sessions I can remember of going in and comparing, you know, my relationships and my past relationships, doing like pros and cons lists, you know, and really diving into that and understanding. Oh, well, you know, maybe you’re having this insecurity because when you were a kid, this happened with your parent or this happened and, you know, in the moment you kind of get these—you feel these—and this is another kind of intuition versus gut thing. I always tell people when they’re in the midst of OCD, don’t trust your gut. It is not time to trust your gut. Right? Let’s get through treatment. And don’t make any big relationship decisions or when we’re in the midst of it, right, going back to kind of your trademarked, don’t figure it out kind of thing.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: But I can’t tell you how many of those quote-unquote, aha moments I had in therapy when I was like, Oh, yes, that makes so much sense. That’s why I’m having these thoughts. And two seconds later, it’d be right back.

Kimberley: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, that’s so true. And it can feel so productive. Like soon we’re going to have complete clarity on this problem, but you just don’t get it.

Andrew: No, you don’t. That’s the paradox of it. Like the more you pull, the more you try to figure it out, the deeper you’re going to get. And one other last thing, sorry. I think when something that really helped me and benefits me is doing compulsions completely takes away your confidence.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: In life and your ability to handle hard things, do hard things, all that kind of stuff. And I’ve noticed since pulling back a lot on compulsions, I feel more confident—not certain, right, but confident in the relationship. Yeah. I feel that we can get through the inevitable hard stuff that happens.

Kimberley: Right. So powerful. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. It has been such a delight. I loved listening to you guys. I can’t wait to hear all of this, but on your side of the story, Danielle, thank you both for coming on.

Andrew: Yeah. We’ll text schedule.

Kimberley: Yes. Yes. Thank you guys.

Andrew: Thank you guys.

Kimberley: Have a wonderful day.

Andrew: You too.

Kimberley: Please note that this podcast or any other resources from CBTschool.com should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day, and thank you for supporting CBTschool.com.