Perfectionism OCD (with Danielle & Andrew Cohen) | Ep. 419

In this episode, Danielle and Andrew Cohen share their personal and professional insights on perfectionism OCD, how it impacts relationships, and the key strategies that have helped them navigate anxiety, communication, and growth together.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• The difference between healthy perfectionism and perfectionism OCD—and why the latter can be so exhausting.
• How perfectionism OCD can create tension in relationships and what partners can do to support each other.
• The top exposure exercises Danielle used to challenge her need for perfection—and how real life became an unexpected exposure therapy.
• Why repairing after conflict is key when perfectionism fuels frustration and resentment.
• How ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and “towards and away” moves helped Danielle break free from OCD’s grip.

The most important advice Andrew has for partners of people with OCD—including what not to do.

Navigating Perfectionism OCD: A Journey of Growth, Challenges, and Support

Perfectionism is often seen as a positive trait—striving to do things well, being thorough, and taking pride in accomplishments. But when perfectionism becomes entangled with OCD, it can lead to an overwhelming cycle of fear, anxiety, and compulsions.

In this episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit, we welcomed back Danielle and Andrew Cohen, a husband-and-wife team who are both therapists and individuals with lived experience of OCD. They shared how perfectionism OCD manifests, how it affects relationships, and the strategies that have helped them navigate it effectively.

What Is Perfectionism OCD?

While many people associate perfectionism with simply wanting things to be “just right,” perfectionism OCD takes it to another level. Danielle, who has lived with OCD since childhood, describes how her compulsions shifted over time—from stepping over cracks to checking car locks and, eventually, obsessing over making things perfect in her professional and personal life.

Perfectionism OCD can show up in various ways, including:

• Excessive checking, such as rewriting work or emails multiple times to ensure accuracy
• Fear of making mistakes, leading to procrastination or avoidance
• Seeking reassurance from others about decisions or actions
• High anxiety when things do not meet a self-imposed standard
• Feeling personally responsible for negative outcomes

Danielle shared how her perfectionism became more intense as she took on greater responsibilities in life—becoming a therapist, a parent, and a homeowner.

The Internal Battle: What Fuels Perfectionism OCD?

One of the hardest parts of perfectionism OCD is the internal dialogue—the relentless need to prevent mistakes, avoid judgment, and control outcomes.

When asked about the fear that drives her compulsions, Danielle explained, “It comes down to this belief that something bad will happen and it will be my fault.”

This underlying fear leads to behaviors such as obsessing over her therapy notes, over-preparing for her child’s preschool bag, or excessively double-checking emails. The brain convinces her that if she does not meet her own impossible standards, the consequences will be catastrophic—even when logically, she knows they will not be.

Perfectionism OCD in Relationships: A Partner’s Perspective

Andrew, who also has OCD, recognized Danielle’s perfectionistic tendencies early on. But as their relationship deepened, he realized that it was not just a personality trait—it was an anxiety-driven need for control.

• The Frustration Cycle: When Andrew tries to help, Danielle often redoes his work, feeling it was not done “right.” This leads to exhaustion and frustration for both of them.
• Triggering Each Other’s OCD: Danielle’s perfectionism can sometimes fuel Andrew’s relationship OCD, creating a loop where their anxieties feed off one another.
• Communication Challenges: Anxiety can make people snappy or irritable. Andrew and Danielle both acknowledge that when stress is high, frustration can turn into tension between them.

Andrew emphasized the importance of rupture and repair in their relationship. While conflicts happen, what matters most is coming back together afterward to talk through emotions and reconnect.

Treatment for Perfectionism OCD: What Works?

Danielle sought specialized treatment using Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP), the gold-standard therapy for OCD.

Some of her exposures included:

• Sending emails with intentional typos
• Submitting therapy notes without triple-checking them
• Letting go of small imperfections in daily life

Interestingly, parenthood became an unexpected exposure in itself. With limited time, Danielle had no choice but to let go of compulsions. She learned that imperfection did not lead to disaster—rather, it led to freedom.

Other helpful strategies included:

• Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT): Using “towards and away” moves to make choices that align with values instead of OCD-driven fears
• Mindfulness: Practicing non-engagement responses like “That’s cool, I’ll deal with it if something bad happens.”
• Breaking Procrastination Cycles: Setting timers to complete tasks in a reasonable timeframe

How to Support a Loved One with Perfectionism OCD

Andrew shared key insights from his experience as both a partner and an OCD specialist:

• Educate Yourself: Understanding OCD helps you respond with compassion instead of frustration.
• Avoid Reassurance-Seeking Traps: Danielle’s go-to phrase, “Hey Stoss?” (a lighthearted request for reassurance), was something Andrew learned to gently redirect.
• Know When to Step Back: It is okay to set boundaries—partners should not become the “fixer” of OCD.
• Seek Your Own Support: Having a therapist or outlet for your own emotions is crucial when supporting a partner with OCD.

Final Thoughts: Letting Go of Perfectionism for a Fuller Life

Danielle beautifully summarized the biggest lesson from her journey:

“There is no such thing as perfect. You can try and try, but perfection is an illusion. The real question is: What is perfectionism costing you? What are you missing out on by trying to control everything?”

For anyone struggling with perfectionism OCD, the key is learning to coexist with discomfort and making choices based on values rather than fear.

Learn More & Get Help

If you or someone you love is struggling with OCD, perfectionism, or anxiety, you can reach out to Danielle and Andrew at CohenOCDTherapy.com. They offer therapy, training, and consultation services in California.

• Instagram: @CohenOCDTherapy

This conversation was a powerful reminder that while OCD can be relentless, there is hope, there is help, and there is a way forward—one imperfect step at a time.

---

Transcription: Perfectionism OCD (with Danielle & Andrew Cohen) 

Kimberley: Welcome back everybody to Your Anxiety Toolkit. We are joined again today by the amazing Danielle and Andrew Cohen. Welcome back! Today, we are talking about perfectionism OCD, and I’m so excited to have you guys here. Thanks for having us.

Andrew: Yeah. We’re very excited to be back.

Kimberley: This is our first time having back-to-back episodes with two people. It’s very kind of very cool. Revolutionary.

Andrew: Yes.

Kimberley: Yeah. We’re breaking the podcast waves here.

Andrew: Oh my.

Kimberley: I feel special. Today, we want to talk—last time, we talked about how Andrew’s relationship OCD developed and how you guys are managing and navigating that as a couple. Today, I want to talk about perfectionism OCD and what it’s like for you, Danielle, to experience that and how you guys are navigating that together in your relationship.

So, Danielle, would you share with me a little of your background story of having perfectionism OCD?

Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. So, I can probably trace having OCD in general all the way back to when I was like five. You know, I would avoid stepping on cracks or tense my muscles in a particular pattern—I can’t remember why.

And, you know, as OCD normally does, it follows you throughout life and changes themes. Just kind of changes over time, whatever was most important to me at that moment in time.

In high school, when I got my first car, it transferred to checking the door lock or making sure I put it in park. Then it followed me through a period where I lost a bunch of weight, and it translated into perfectionism about how much weight I was losing and how much I was working out—which might be an interesting topic for another time.

It just kind of followed me throughout life, and I really noticed that the more responsibility I took on—having a career, becoming a parent, buying a house—it really ramped up around those times and became more severe as my life became more full and rich but also full of responsibility.

Kimberley: Right. So for people listening who might want to differentiate, we’re talking about perfectionism OCD. Some people have perfectionism where they’re like, No, it has to be perfect. That’s the way it should be.

Some people have the feeling that they have to make it perfect, but they know it really doesn’t need to be. And there’s a spectrum of that.

Where were you, as you said, with responsibility? Where were you on that spectrum? What did it feel like for you to have the need for things to be perfect?

Danielle: Yeah, I think I’m an interesting mix because I think I have both, really.

As a person, I really value doing things well, giving things my all, and doing things as close to perfectly as possible. That gives me joy—that’s within my values.

But I also do have perfectionism OCD, where I feel like I need to have things be perfect. So it’s like an interplay between the two.

I think where the OCD perfectionism picks up is mainly around big responsibilities. Like at work—I’m a therapist too—making sure my notes are perfect in whatever way that makes sense to my OCD brain at the time.

Making sure my son has everything he needs for preschool or going to his grandparents’ house. Making sure everything is packed perfectly, and if it’s not, I have to really give it a lot of attention until it feels right. So, it’s an interplay of both.

Kimberley: Yeah. And just to be clear, what is your fear? What will happen if you don’t? Like, what does your brain present to you as the outcome if you don’t maintain this high level of perfectionism?

Danielle: Yeah, I think mainly it comes down to like, I’ll get in trouble or something bad will happen that will be my fault.

So, like, if I don’t do my notes perfectly, something like the BBS will be on my case or something bad like that. Or if my son doesn’t have what he needs and something bad happens, then I’m a bad mom. Like, it’s my fault.

Kimberley: Right.

Danielle: Something bad.

Andrew: Yeah, totally.

Kimberley: Yeah. So, Andrew, just for the sake of everyone knowing in case they haven’t listened—you’ve told your story about having OCD.

When you guys first started dating, did you notice this about Danielle, or is this something she had to disclose?

Andrew: Well, so, in the last podcast, we talked about how we met in grad school and had classes together.

From having classes with her, you could just tell she was very much a perfectionist. She was very, very, very, like, I have to pay attention to everything. I need to get all the information. I need to make sure I’m retaining this.

And I would just poke fun at her, which was probably not the nicest thing, but—you know, just flirting. It clearly worked out.

I would tease her about how seriously she took all the classes, and herself, honestly, too. So, I definitely noticed it.

Did we talk about OCD when we first met? I mean, I know I talked about my OCD in introductions at grad school and all that, but I don’t think you brought it up as much?

Danielle: I don’t think so.

Andrew: When did we start actually talking more about it?

Danielle: I think deeper into our relationship.

Andrew: Yeah?

So, other than that, at the time, I just thought she was like, I want things to be perfect. I didn’t realize there were all these other OCD things going on too.

Kimberley: Yeah. Right. Was the anxiety piece visible? Could you see it as just this is the way she likes things to be, or could you see the anxiety that was fueling these behaviors?

Andrew: Interesting question.

Danielle: Yeah, very interesting question.

Andrew: In the beginning, like when we were first just kind of flirting and stuff, I thought it was just like, Oh, you know, that’s just how she is.

But then when we started hanging out more, and we would hang out pretty much all the time—when we were doing assignments, studying for an exam, or writing a paper—I started to see:

Oh. Oh. This isn’t just a preference. This is like, no, I have to.

And the amount of time it would take her to write a paper, go over and over again, and the cute little reassurance-seeking attempts—it all became more clear.

So yeah, I progressively realized, Oh, there’s something more there.

Kimberley: Yeah. Right. Was the anxiety piece visible? Could you see it as just this is the way she likes things to be, or could you see the anxiety that was fueling these behaviors?

Andrew: Interesting question.

Danielle: Yeah, very interesting question.

Andrew: In the beginning, like when we were first just kind of flirting and stuff, I thought it was just like, Oh, you know, that’s just how she is.

But then when we started hanging out more, and we would hang out pretty much all the time—when we were doing assignments, studying for an exam, or writing a paper—I started to see:

Oh. Oh. This isn’t just a preference. This is like, no, I have to.

And the amount of time it would take her to write a paper, go over and over again, and the cute little reassurance-seeking attempts—it all became more clear.

So yeah, I progressively realized, Oh, there’s something more there.

Kimberley: Yeah. And so, Danielle, just so that people feel understood, what is it like internally to have this on a day-to-day basis?

Was it to the degree where you were coping on the outside but freaking out on the inside? Were there meltdowns, crying, panic attacks? What was your experience like—whether in grad school or even now?

Danielle: I think it’s interesting because you value being perceived as perfect, right?

Like, that’s my value—to be perceived as perfect and to be as perfect as I can. So, on the outside, it looks like I’ve got my stuff together. It looks like I’m very calm and collected and perfect.

But that’s not the experience on the inside. I’m wrought with anxiety. I hold a lot of tension, especially in my face.

Andrew: Oh my God, she grinds her teeth so hard in her sleep. Oh my God.

Danielle: So, internally, it’s not so perfect. But yeah, I work really hard to make sure it doesn’t show—maybe a little too much.

Kimberley: So, on the outside, you always appear so calm when I’ve hung out with you. But you’re saying that’s not typical of your internal experience.

Which I think is where our hearts break for people who are struggling. They’re so high-functioning, but hurting on the inside.

Does your perfectionism OCD come with a really mean voice? For me, as someone who had to let go of perfectionism because it was destroying my life, it was a really mean place to live.

Some of my clients have said, No, it’s not particularly mean. It’s just the rules.

Does yours have a mean voice, or is it just the rules that OCD tells you that you have to follow?

Danielle: Yeah, I think probably more so like your clients—where it doesn’t feel mean. Maybe that’s because I value it so much, too.

But yeah, it’s more of just, This is how it needs to be. This is the way it is.

Andrew: A lot of shoulds, if you will.

Danielle: This is the way it should be.

Andrew: Ought to be.

Danielle: Yeah.

Kimberley: Yeah. Right.

So, Andrew, how is this impacting you on a day-to-day basis? You guys have children now. Whatever you’re comfortable sharing—how has this impacted you at different seasons of your relationship?

Andrew: Well, I’d say, like, present-day—it’s kind of a mix.

Like Danielle said, she values things being a certain way—organized, structured. I don’t think that’s necessarily her OCD Chester, if you will. That’s just how she wants things to be.

She’ll want me to help, but then when I help, it’s not up to the standards that she wants it to be. So then she gets frustrated. I get frustrated.

And then she just ends up redoing it anyway. Right?

It creates frustration, tension, and sometimes resentment. And that part is harder for me to have empathy for.

But I have more empathy when I see her really struggling—like with her notes. When I can see how anxious she is and how stuck in her head she is, I have a lot more empathy for that.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Danielle: Yeah, I’ll put myself in one of these double binds—like, I’m so exhausted, I can’t do everything myself. So, Andrew, you’ve got to help me.

But then, when he helps, it’s like, You didn’t do it right. It’s not good enough.

So then I have to fix it. And now I’m tired again.

Kimberley: Yeah.

I think this is where it gets really interesting with OCD and how it shows up relationally.

As Andrew shared about frustration—which is so valid, right? Like, you both are coming from a valid place. But then often, where it impacts the relationship is how we communicate that frustration.

I know, for me personally, when I’m anxious, I can turn a little mean, edgy, or snappy. Even a bit judgmental—which I’m not proud of.

And that’s where it gets really messy in a relationship.

So, is that just me? Or are you guys handling that as well?

Andrew: Well, are you seeking reassurance right now? Is that the real question?

Kimberley: I want to make sure I’m not putting words in your mouth.

Danielle: I’m not sure we should answer that question.

Andrew: Yeah, let’s sit with that.

No, a thousand percent. I mean, I think this is where the interplay of OCD comes into play.

She’ll definitely become snappy and edgy. And then my OCD kicks in, like, Oh my God, why is she saying stuff like that?

Then, What does that mean about the relationship?

And then, Is this really the right person?

And then it’s like, Chester (her OCD) and Bitumen (my OCD) are just—living together, right?

Kimberley: So her struggle with perfectionism OCD and how it may create frustration toward you triggers your relationship OCD.

And now you guys are just—your OCD, your Bitumen and Chester, are having a field day.

Andrew: A field day. An absolute field day.

Kimberley: How do you guys navigate that?

Danielle: Well, this is where things need to be humanized, right?

Sometimes, not well.

Andrew: Yeah. Not so great at times. Not so great.

It depends on so many factors—how wild our son Asher is being, how much capacity we have, if we’ve had a busy workday, if we’re not sleeping, if we’re not taking care of ourselves.

If all those things are going on, then it’s going to be a bit more explosive than we like.

A little bit of yelling.

Danielle: Name-calling.

Andrew: Name-calling.

Not proud. Not proud of it.

But I think what we do really well is coming back after those situations and discussing it. Having a conversation. Working through it.

Kimberley: Rupture and repair.

Andrew: Yes. Rupture and repair.

Kimberley: And repair is such an important piece, isn’t it?

Because, Andrew, you mentioned resentment. I think particularly around perfectionism, that’s a high expectation for the person with perfectionism OCD.

But it’s also an added expectation on the person who, maybe on a Sunday, just wants to chill and take a break.

Andrew: Amen.

Kimberley: You know, so it’s that if there’s no repair, that resentment can grow and grow in a relationship.

So I love that we’re talking about this, particularly because of the two ways that your OCDs can play off of each other. Because it is—it’s hard. This is really hard.

Andrew: It’s really hard. And I think I have gotten better at being able to express my frustrations.

Because I noticed that there was a time—maybe two years ago?—where I was just really taking it all in.

I was just not good up here, right? It was—it was pretty dark.

Thankfully, I started going to my own therapy. Not even OCD-specific therapy, just a place to talk about the frustrations of parenting, being married, all that kind of stuff.

And being able to communicate that has been exceptionally helpful. I would say we’re at a better place than we’ve been prior.

Kimberley: Yeah, which is a perfect segue into talking about treatment for perfectionism OCD.

And beautifully, you’ve already shared, Andrew, as the partner, how treatment—it doesn’t even have to be OCD treatment for you—but just having a place to talk.

So, Danielle, what has been your experience with treatment for perfectionism OCD? And what does that entail?

Danielle: Yeah, so I did my own exposure and response prevention (ERP) treatment at OCDLA.

Andrew: This is not sponsored.

Danielle: Haha, no! But yeah, that was obviously immensely helpful.

Doing exposures like sending emails to people with mistakes in them on purpose.

Doing my session notes and submitting them even when they didn’t feel fully perfect. You know, the traditional ERP stuff like that.

Honestly, I feel like life circumstances—having a child and having more responsibilities—actually helped, rather than added to the stress.

Sometimes, I just didn’t have time to do all the compulsions I wanted to do.

And I just had to make decisions and act a little quicker. That kind of became a real-life exposure.

Like, Wow, okay. I just did that less than perfectly, and I’m okay. I’m alive. Nothing happened.

So, at the same time that having more things going on in life made things more difficult, it also kind of forced me to become more flexible.

Andrew: Which is nice.

Danielle: Yeah.

Andrew: I think I would add, too—like, recently, we traveled with Asher for the first time to New York.

And I think Chester (her OCD) was having a field day leading up to that trip.

She was extremely tense, anxious, all that kind of stuff.

I think I could see her trying to find so many ways to avoid going or not doing it.

And then when we actually got there, it ended up being an amazing trip. And she handled it incredibly well.

How empowering and cool was that for you?

Danielle: Yeah, it’s always the anticipation of something that’s worse than actually doing it.

Sometimes, you just have to go and do the thing that makes you anxious and see—like, It might be hard, but it’s worth it.

You can live the life you want to live and not be held back by things.

Andrew: Yeah, we got to spend time with my brother, my sister, and all the cousins. We went to Central Park, ice skating—it was really fun.

So just being able to do that kind of stuff, I think, has been really helpful.

I like what you said, Danielle—the more busy we get, yes, it stresses you out, but it also gives you more opportunities to experience flexibility.

Kimberley: Yeah.

So you mentioned some of the exposures you did, like sending emails with mistakes or submitting notes that had errors.

Do you have to practice those exposures and response prevention regularly now? Or is life the exposure for you?

What does it look like day-to-day at this point?

Danielle: Yeah, I think most of my work happens in the moment.

Like when I have to do my notes for my sessions, I’ll just practice ERP in the moment when I need to do them.

I don’t really do planned exposures anymore because I’m a few years out from treatment.

But I’m sure there will probably be a time when I need to again—maybe if things ramp up and get really severe at some point.

Andrew: I feel like you kind of did, though—like a year ago, after Asher was born, and you started working at Cohen OCD with us.

You were saying how much more stressful it was. So we literally talked about, like, Okay, let’s set timers. Let’s actually implement specific strategies.

Danielle: That was about a year ago. But now, not so much. Now that I have a better grasp on it.

Kimberley: And so, Andrew, you were saying you set timers—was that to avoid procrastination?

Andrew: Yeah, like getting each note submitted in a certain amount of time.

And also, making sure they were done in a timely manner—like 24 to 48 hours after a session.

So we tackled it from two angles: how long it took to start the notes, and then how long it took to finish them.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: Getting it done promptly.

Kimberley: I have two questions.

First, for Danielle—people with perfectionism OCD often have a really difficult time making decisions.

Is that difficult for you, or is that something you’ve worked through?

Danielle: Yeah, I definitely have worked through things.

I definitely take a long time to make important decisions.

Oddly, I’m very good at making really quick decisions on things that don’t matter as much—like what I’m making for dinner, what the grocery list looks like.

Things that don’t have as much at stake, I guess, in my brain.

But when there’s more at stake—yes, I have difficulty making those decisions.

I’ll analyze the situation over and over, over-research, things like that.

Andrew: It’s so interesting because, like, I see that, but at the same time—things like our relationship, buying a house—you were so decisive.

Like, when we were dating, you were like, I know I want to marry you.

And when we were buying a house, she walked in, looked around, and was like, This is it. We’re putting in an offer.

Danielle: Yeah.

Andrew: I was like, Okay…

And she was absolutely right. She turned it into a beautiful home.

Danielle: I guess it illustrates how sometimes OCD makes no sense, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Danielle: Yeah.

Andrew: I would argue buying a house and getting married are pretty big decisions.

Kimberley: Yeah, and I get that.

I remember, with my perfectionism, buying a Christmas tree was a nightmare.

In Australia, we always have fake trees. But when I came to America, everyone had real ones.

And I was like, No, we’re going to get a fake one.

But buying a fake Christmas tree was such a huge, overanalyzed decision for me.

You’d think it was something small—like, It’s just a tree, you buy it at Target, it’s not a big deal.

But for me, it felt like I was stamping my future family Christmas life forever. It was ridiculous.

So, thank you for sharing about the decision-making piece.

Kimberley: So, Andrew, when you see Danielle doing compulsions, do you let her go and let her work it out?

Do you call out the OCD?

And Danielle, you can jump in too—because Andrew has OCD as well.

I know a lot of my clients say, Oh, it’s so annoying when someone points out, ‘This is your OCD,’ and tells me to stop.

But at the same time, it’s helpful when someone lovingly supports you.

How do you guys navigate catching each other in compulsions?

Danielle: I mean, it used to be a lot more involvement from you. Now, not so much.

Andrew: Yeah, I think before, I was just like, Alright, enough already. Just submit the note.

Maybe I wasn’t being as compassionate as I should’ve been.

I think sometimes there’s a time and a place to be like, Alright, let’s go. Let’s just do it. It’s time.

Now, I think it depends.

And honestly, as I’m saying this, I realize this is probably some level of accommodation on my part.

But if I can tell she’s in a really high-anxiety state and I just don’t want to deal with backlash, I’m like, Just do your thing. I’m not in the mood. I’ve had a day. It’s not worth it right now.

But ideally, I use supportive statements, like:

“I see that Chester is loud.”

“I know this is hard, but you can submit the note, and you can handle whatever happens.”

And then, she has a really cute way of seeking reassurance.

She calls me Stassi—like from Vanderpump Rules.

Kimberley: Haha, okay.

Andrew: So I’ll just hear this really cute, Hey, Stass…

And I know that Chester has entered the room.

So, I just kind of look at her. Sometimes I’ll give her a look, or I won’t answer, or I won’t acknowledge it.

Danielle: Yeah.

Kimberley: So when she says, Hey, Stass… what is she about to ask?

Andrew: Oh, it’s always reassurance.

Like, if we’re laying in bed and she’s doing her notes, and I hear, Hey, Stass…

I know it’s going to be something like, How would you write this?

Or if we’re having dinner, she’ll suddenly be like, Hey, do you think I maybe hit a car in the parking lot?

Kimberley: Ah, like a confession-reassurance cycle.

Andrew: Exactly.

Kimberley: And how do you respond?

Andrew: Sometimes I just laugh because it’s kind of cute.

But reassurance-seeking always starts out cute. And then, if I don’t give her reassurance, she gets a little more snappy, a little more edgy.

So, I try my best to say something like, I love you, but I’m not going to answer that.

And if I need to, I walk away.

Thankfully, she doesn’t follow me around the house for reassurance.

Kimberley: Haha, that’s good!

So, Danielle—besides ERP, have there been other strategies that have been helpful for you?

Like, for managing anticipatory anxiety, reducing compulsions, regulating emotions, or improving communication?

Danielle: Yeah, ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) has really resonated with me.

Especially towards and away moves—particularly with my son.

I only have so many hours in a day, right? He naps, he sleeps, so my time with him is already limited.

Do I want to spend that time being stressed out and focused on my notes?

Or do I want to be present, enjoying my time with him, being a happy and engaged mom?

That’s been really helpful.

Also, using non-engagement responses, like:

“That’s cool. If something bad happens, I’ll deal with it then.”

That’s been super helpful.

And, of course, mindfulness—all that ACT good stuff.

Andrew: I’ve really been pushing ACT on her. She’s finally on board.

Danielle: Haha, yeah, I’m an ACT fan now.

Kimberley: That’s awesome. I think that’s so important.

Andrew: I’ve been into mindfulness for so long, and now—

Kimberley: Now you’re part of the club, Danielle!

Danielle: Haha, totally.

Kimberley: So, what message would you give to someone struggling with perfectionism OCD?

Danielle: I would say, There is no such thing as perfect.

You can try and try, but perfection is an illusion—it doesn’t exist.

And I think towards and away moves is a really helpful way to think about it.

You can live in this perfectionistic bubble, but what do you lose?

What is the cost?

Kimberley: That’s so good.

Do you want to share what towards and away moves means for people who might not be familiar?

Danielle: Yeah!

So, towards moves are actions that bring you closer to the life you want to live—closer to your values.

Away moves are actions driven by compulsions or avoidance—things that take you away from your values.

So, choosing towards moves means choosing the life you actually want to live.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think so much of the work is realizing that it’s easy to get sucked into doing away moves.

We’re always trying to get rid of uncomfortable thoughts and feelings.

And compulsions do work—but only temporarily.

At what cost?

If you keep chasing perfection, you lose your ability to be the partner, parent, or person you want to be.

Kimberley: Yeah.

Andrew: Learning to coexist with discomfort lets you put your energy into what truly matters.

Kimberley: Yes!

Andrew: Also, humans are inherently imperfect.

And that’s actually beautiful—because it gives us opportunities to grow, learn, and build resilience.

Kimberley: I love that.

I want to ask—Danielle, you mentioned having an eating disorder in the past.

For me, so much of my perfectionism was also about avoiding shame.

Like, I can’t be a bad wife, I can’t be a bad mom, I can’t have a bad body.

I was doing all these perfectionistic behaviors to avoid the shame I might feel if I had to see my imperfections.

Did shame play a role for you? Or was it more about avoiding uncertainty and anxiety?

Danielle: Oh, shame was definitely involved.

Especially around eating and body image. I had pretty severe anorexia.

I was trying to avoid the shame of my past body.

Even now, sometimes those thoughts creep in.

Like, Oh, my face is rounder than before I had a baby.

So yeah—shame is definitely part of it.

Kimberley: Yeah.

I didn’t do exposures to shame, per se, but I learned to identify when I was doing anything to avoid those shame-based thoughts.

It’s a scary place to live when you’re constantly trying to avoid being labeled in a certain way.

Danielle: Totally.

Kimberley: Andrew, what advice would you give to partners of people with OCD?

Andrew: Number one: Take care of yourself.

Living with someone who has OCD can be hard.

If you’re constantly making sure your partner feels comfortable, it will destroy you.

So, educate yourself about OCD, learn about accommodation, and—if possible—go to therapy yourself.

Also, OCD is sneaky. Even as specialists, we still catch ourselves accommodating sometimes.

And lastly—your partner is so much more than their OCD.

Make sure your life together isn’t just about OCD. Do the things you love.

Kimberley: Yes!

This has been such a great conversation. We covered so much.

Where can people find you?

Danielle: CohenOCDTherapy.com

Andrew: And we’re on Instagram! We’re working on adding more content soon.

Kimberley: Amazing. Thank you both so much!

Andrew: Absolutely. Hope you guys got a lot out of this!

Kimberley: Thank you for supporting CBTSchool.com!