People Pleasers and the Shame They Hide (with Maggie Nick) | Ep. 480

In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Maggie Nick to explore why so many “good kids” grow into adults carrying deep shame, people-pleasing patterns, and fear of disappointing others—and how healing begins with compassion and understanding.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Why the kindest, most responsible people are often the hardest on themselves
• How the “good kid” role can quietly shape anxiety, perfectionism, and shame in adulthood
• The powerful difference between guilt and shame, and why it matters for healing
• Why saying no, setting boundaries, or disappointing others can feel so terrifying
• How shame impacts the nervous system and keeps people stuck in survival mode
• Gentle, compassionate tools for beginning to heal the inner critic and reconnect with your true self

Why the Nicest People Often Carry the Most Shame

Understanding the “good kid” wound and how to begin healing

There are some conversations that stay with you long after the microphone turns off.

This was one of them.

In this week’s episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit, I sat down with the wonderful Maggie Nick, author of Good Kids: Why You Suffered in Silence and How to Break the Cycle, and I truly felt this conversation in my body.

Because for so many of us, especially those of us who struggle with anxiety, perfectionism, OCD, eating disorders, people-pleasing, or hyper-responsibility, this conversation hits close to home.

Many of us were the “good kid.”

The easy one.
The responsible one.
The one who didn’t cause trouble.
The one adults could count on.

And while that may have looked like strength from the outside, underneath it often came with something much heavier:

shame.

What Does It Mean to Be the “Good Kid”?

As Maggie shared in our conversation, good kids often learn very early that being easy, polite, helpful, and emotionally low-maintenance keeps them safe.

This isn’t always about overt trauma.

Sometimes it’s much quieter than that.

It can look like:

• learning to hide your needs
• avoiding conflict at all costs
• apologizing quickly when tension arises
• feeling terrified of disappointing others
• believing mistakes make you “bad”
• becoming hyper-aware of other people’s moods

For many people, this becomes less about kindness and more about survival.

When someone’s disappointment feels like a life-or-death emergency, that is often shame talking.

And shame is powerful.

How Shame Shows Up in Adult Life

One of the most powerful parts of this conversation was naming how shame quietly runs in the background of daily life.

It may sound like:

• I shouldn’t need rest.
• I should be doing more.
• What if I upset them?
• What if they think badly of me?
• I need to fix this immediately.
• I’m only lovable when I’m doing everything right.

For many anxious people, shame becomes the lens through which they interpret everything.

A delayed text response becomes:
“I did something wrong.”

A boundary becomes:
“I’m selfish.”

A mistake becomes:
“I’m a bad person.”

That’s the heartbreaking part of shame.

It doesn’t just tell you that something went wrong.

It tells you you are wrong.

The Difference Between Guilt and Shame

This distinction is so important.

Guilt says:
“I did something that doesn’t align with my values.”

Shame says:
“There is something fundamentally wrong with me.”

That difference changes everything.

Guilt can guide repair.

Shame often fuels hiding, overthinking, self-punishment, and compulsive reassurance seeking.

This is why shame is so often at the core of anxiety disorders, OCD, perfectionism, and disordered eating.

Why Boundaries Feel So Hard

If you grew up believing love was connected to being easy, agreeable, or impressive, it makes complete sense that boundaries feel deeply uncomfortable.

Saying no may trigger thoughts like:

• They’ll be mad at me
• I’ve disappointed them
• I’m selfish
• I’m not a good person

For many people, boundaries don’t just feel uncomfortable.

They feel dangerous.

That’s because the nervous system has often learned to associate conflict with threat.

The Nervous System and Shame

One of the most powerful insights from this episode is that shame is not just cognitive.

It’s physiological.

Your body may react to disappointment, criticism, or perceived rejection as if a bear is chasing you.

That’s why shame can feel so overwhelming.

It may show up as:

• tight chest
• racing thoughts
• nausea
• panic
• freezing
• compulsive over-apologizing
• replaying conversations all night

This is why simply “thinking differently” is often not enough.

We must also work with the body.

A More Compassionate Response

One thing I loved so deeply about this conversation is how closely it aligns with the self-compassion work I teach.

Instead of responding to mistakes with:

What is wrong with me?

We can begin practicing:

I made a mistake, and mistakes are part of being human.

Instead of:

I should be doing better.

Try:

This is what my best looks like right now, and that is enough.

That sentence from Maggie stopped me in my tracks.

This is what my best looks like right now.

How often do we forget that our best changes depending on what we’re carrying?

Healing the Inner Critic

For so many of us, the inner critic believes it is protecting us.

It may think:

• If I stay hard on myself, I won’t fail
• If I stay vigilant, no one will reject me
• If I stay perfect, I’ll be safe

This is why healing isn’t about “getting rid” of the inner critic.

It’s about understanding what it learned.

Ask yourself:

• What does this part of me believe I must do to be lovable?
• What rules am I living by?
• Who taught me those rules?
• Are those rules actually true?

These questions can begin to soften shame and make space for healing.

 

A Gentle Reminder for the “Good Kids”

If you were praised for being easy, strong, mature, or low-maintenance, I want to lovingly remind you:

You are allowed to need things.

You are allowed to rest.

You are allowed to disappoint people sometimes.

You are allowed to take up space.

And most importantly, 

your worth was never meant to be earned through perfection.

Healing shame is not about becoming someone new.

It’s about coming back to who you were before shame convinced you that love had to be earned.

And that healing is possible.

Always.

Transcription: People Pleasers and the Shame They Hide (with Maggie Nick) 

Kimberley: Hello, my loves. It has been a while since I’ve sat down and recorded a more traditional chat audio with you. I’ve been doing my best here on the podcast to just dive into the information, dive in, give you as much high quality evidence-based skills as I can. But I’ve really missed just checking in on you and saying, how are you doing?

 

What’s going on? Is there any tension you’re holding in your body? Is, are you being kind to yourself? I hope so. I just wanted to check in. There has been so much happening over here, over at CBT School and in my private practice. We now, as many of you may know, we have a YouTube channel, which I am really putting so much time and effort into as well as the podcast.

 

I have recently launched a new course, which you may also have known about, called The Rumination Reset. This is a course that will help you to stop ruminating. It is all science-based. It is me teaching you the exact skills that I teach my client. This is a smaller course. It’s just a focused solution for a specific problem.

 

If you struggle with rumination, if you struggle with overthinking and catastrophizing and mental compulsion, please do go over to cbt score.com, or you can click the lyric link in the show notes and sign up for the rumination reset. It is my new favorite little. Baby course. In addition to that, I just wanted to let you know that we are pushing ahead with the content here.

 

In fact, where I am really considering doubling down and doubling the content I put out and really pushing to make sure you get access to actual skills that actually help. The more I’m on social media, the more I see absolute craziness and horrible advice in. Very concerning, like quick fixes. And I am on a mission to help you suffer less, not suffer more with those types of skills and faulty strategies.

 

So that being said, let’s get over to the show. I hope you’re doing well. I am 

 

Maggie: sending you every single ounce of my love, and I’ll talk to you soon. 

 

Kimberley: Have you ever noticed that the people who care most about doing the right thing are often the ones who carry the most shame? The people who try the hardest to be kind and responsible and helpful and thoughtful are often the same exact people who lay awake at night replaying their conversations.

 

They’re worried all the time that they’ve disappointed someone, and they just feel like they’re constantly doing something wrong. They’re the ones. Who we would call the good kid. They’re easy, they’re responsible, they’re mature. The ones who didn’t cause any trouble. What if always trying to be the good kid meant learning to hide your needs, silence your feelings, and carrying shame that was never yours to carry.

 

Today we are talking about why the nicest people often carry the most shame. We have a guest, her name is Maggie. Nick and she is the author of Good Kids, why You Suffered In Silence and How To Break the Cycle. I’m so excited for this conversation. Thank you for being here Maggie. 

 

Maggie: Thank you for having me.

 

I’m so happy to be here with you and actually finally get to meet Draw. 

 

Kimberley: I know 

 

Maggie: following each other online. 

 

Kimberley: Now I follow you and have followed you for years. I feel a deep connection to this because I was a good kid. I was always told you were like such a breeze, like you never had to worry about Kimberly.

 

Like she was happy, she was responsible. She didn’t seem to care about things so much. I know it was me, but what was so interesting is it wasn’t until my adult life when my mental health like took a crash and then I had to unpack all that. 

 

Maggie: Oh yeah. 

 

Kimberley: Um, so that had this book. Was like, your work has been a light bulb for me, so thank you.

 

Um, I wanna get straight into some questions with you is why do the nicest people, quote unquote, the nicest people, why do they often carry the most shame? Because when I pulled my community, everyone raised their hand and we’re like, let’s talk about shame. Why are those who are so nice and so caring always hardest on themselves.

 

Maggie: Hmm. Just to put it like, just to cut straight through everything. So good. Kids are exactly like you described. The ones that are. So easy to parent. We basically parent ourselves, right? We don’t even need to be parented. Um, I think if I had to like jump right to the, like draw the straight line, it’s that good kids move quickly into submission and apologize anytime things feel tense or uncertain.

 

It’s more niceness and politeness than it is kindness. Not that we’re not kind people, but like being in trouble. Just the possibility of being in trouble or someone being mad at us or upset with us or disappointed in us feels like a life or death emergency. And so I think what you’re clocking is a set of relational trauma responses that are relational shame, trauma.

 

They’re driven from this shame of like, what if I. Show up as a difficult person. If I’m not impressive. If I am, you know, if they see the real me, who I’ve been made to feel is, you know, hard to love, unacceptable, a burden, a disappointment. You know, I can’t let them see the real me. And so I’ve just gotta make sure nobody ever finds out who I really am.

 

Yeah, yeah. And so I’ve gotta keep shape shifting into like whatever this person will see as good and acceptable to stay safe. It’s. Exhausting. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. So as I was reading your book, you and everyone can see here, like, I’ve like ratted it up, like it’s, it’s been highlighted. I’ve got all my notes in here, so it’s like a little mini journal going on.

 

Maggie: I can’t even tell you what it feels like to see that, like for that in your book. I do that with books and like I’m still, I’ll never get over. 

 

Kimberley: It’s the only way I can function when I have books. It’s how I love, I like, I feel like I become one with them. And I was sitting down my, actually, I was watching my son, he was at skateboarding lesson and I was sitting on a blanket and I was reading it and I had this like visceral feeling to you say like relational trauma, because I was like, I don’t remember a big fat trauma happening.

 

Like I don’t, and, and I know you talk about this in the book as well as like, I. Always thought something just must have happened in my brain when I turned 18. To cause all of those emotions to calm and that it wasn’t from my childhood. I almost felt a sense of like protection of my parents, of like, oh no, they did a, they did the best they could and they tried and, and so I just wanted to bring that up because I could notice and observe myself like working through that.

 

And you kept addressing that in the book, but I sort of, um. I wonder if first, like what’s your feedback to me on that? 

 

Maggie: Hmm. Well it’s funny ’cause I did a video series a couple years ago. I don’t know if you remember it, but it was called things that I thought were My Personality that turned out to actually be trauma responses.

 

Kimberley: Mm-hmm. 

 

Maggie: And. It’s been fascinating. I don’t know if this has been your experience, but with like, I would call you a thought leader in your, you know, expertise. Like you are someone who does seem to kind of have a grasp on like the cutting edge of stuff. I don’t feel like, like your stuff feels a little bit different, like a little edgier or like you’re calling a deeper layer out than most people on anxiety and OCD.

 

It’s just my assessment or like. Part of the reason I think that I’m drawn to your work, and I think as a thought leader myself, right, like nobody’s really called it good kid. Like nobody’s really done this before and it’s been fascinating to clock all the people in our field who are so quick to come into my comment.

 

And try to call bullshit. Yeah. Like it, it happened on an on a video about, I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed. Mm. Questions in the comments. And I think maybe they said it to their kids and they’re feeling attacked when I’m like, Ooh, we gotta stop saying this. And they’re standing 10 toes down in support.

 

The kids need to hear that and it’s important. And they’re like, I’m a psychologist. Like they’re identifying in the comments as a clinician and then standing to their toes down behind shameless discipline. And I’m like. Okay. And when I did that video series about things that I thought were my personality, they were actually trauma responses.

 

Again, whole wave of clinicians, like not everything’s a trauma response. And like, you’re right, not everything is a trauma response, but like, how do I say this nicely? Like, tell me you don’t know what relational trauma is without telling me you don’t know real relational trauma. 

 

Kimberley: Right. 

 

Maggie: Yeah. I’m not trying to like call anybody out publicly, but like if you’re gonna come in my comments and try to go.

 

Call bullshit on my work. Like perhaps you should explore the literature first, you know? 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Because relation, trauma is, trauma happens inside our relationships and it doesn’t feel like trauma. Right. And, and there are a lot of people in our field who don’t even know what relational trauma is. Right.

 

Like those examples tell us a lot. Relational, like the, the deepest layer. Of relational trauma. Trauma that happens inside our relationships is the shame layer. Shame’s always the deepest layer. We can peel back the fear and the, and shame is always gonna be at the very deepest layer. That’s just kind of how it works.

 

It kind of sneaks its way to the bottom. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Does. It is hard to access until we’ve done a certain amount of work to kind of stabilize inside. Right? I think our body kind of buries it deep until we’re stable enough and able to kind of regulate through the shame without hurting ourselves or hurting other people with it, right?

 

Mm-hmm. Shame is, is like poison. It’s like we’re. Pulling poison out of our body and we poison ourselves and other people with it until we’ve kind of like, that’s a weird analogy, but you know what I’m saying, so, 

 

Kimberley: yep. 

 

Maggie: The people that I’ve seen talk about it, talk about relational shame, trauma as being, you know, ignored, criticized, corrected.

 

It is all of those things, but to me, again, the deepest layer is being seen, being unseen as good inside, basically as a good person. At your core and also at the same time being seen in a bad way, right? Mm-hmm. We had these moments where, you know, we made a mistake. God forbid a good kid makes a mistake, has a non-perfect moment, right?

 

God forbid. ’cause we really good kids tend to be held to much higher standards. Like teachers hold them to higher standards. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: It’s like we depend on those kids. 

 

Kimberley: Mm-hmm. 

 

Maggie: I’m a mom. I’m the kid who would be the good kid. I get it when that kid is locked in and well behaving. It makes my job easier. Like I get it.

 

Yeah. But like when a child, good kid or otherwise makes a mistake, you know, and our parent came in with this like, what is wrong with you? I expected more from you. 

 

Kimberley: I’m 

 

Maggie: not mad. I’m just disappointed. You should be so ashamed of yourself. You should know better. You’re being so dramatic. Why can’t you just get it together?

 

Like it’s shame, lace, discipline, and it’s okay if we’ve said these things to our kids. Like it’s okay. Of course you have like that’s how traditional trauma. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And like the thing about shame is it’s embedded. Like we can’t even clock it for a while. Like it’s, it’s the air we breathed, right? It’s not just our modeling and the way our brains built this whole blueprint about how to be a good parent, right?

 

Yeah. By raising good kids, like our brains built this whole like archetype. Around how the kind of parent we would need to be one day to raise successful kids. 

 

Kimberley: Yep. 

 

Maggie: And then we were rewarded for being the one who never needed them. The one who was always impressive, the one who never let them down. The one they could count on.

 

Right. The one who’s always helpful without being asked, the one who’s always mature, the one who’s always responsible that I time in class, like we were rewarded. And then when we didn’t meet those expectations, which by the way. We’re insane. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And unattainable. We were met with, I’m not mad, I’m disappointed.

 

I expected more from you. And what happens when we do that, when our parents did that to us and what will happen if we don’t break the cycle with our kids? Is kids don’t just learn, don’t do that. They learn there’s something wrong with the version of me that does that. 

 

Kimberley: Yes, 

 

Maggie: it’s the energy of like, that is who you really are.

 

You really are somebody I can’t trust. When you fly, it’s like, Ugh, I’ve seen a side of you that I better never see again. You know, I better never see that side of you again. That side of you is acceptable. And I do like, have a lot of grace for our parents. I don’t think this could have gone another way, like weren’t resources, there weren’t, you know, all of us showing up, you know, with access to technology to share and ideas like.

 

It just, I don’t think it could have gone another way. I have a lot of grace for our parents. When I was writing the book, I did a lot of research on like how this happened and what you find, and just this has been handed down. You know, I think we were children. There was a move in the field, in the parenting psychology field to try to, there was a recognition finally that like hitting children is harmful.

 

And so I think. There was, there were efforts right. To move away from that. And that’s really where we see shame. Kind of take like clamp down. Right. Our parents’ generation were, were told don’t hit them. Like, get in your car and leave so you don’t 

 

Kimberley: mm-hmm. Hit 

 

Maggie: them. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. Or 

 

Maggie: don’t hit them. Say, I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed.

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Works. Which it does work and like Right. It does work in extinguishing, misbehavior. Mm-hmm. It does. Kids good. But there is a cost, and that’s what I’m trying to do with this book. Like 

 

Kimberley: yeah, 

 

Maggie: there is a fallout when we make kids feel like we only love them when they’re well behaved. And I know parents like, what are you talking about?

 

But like I had this day, I had this moment the other day with my son. A parenting has just. Fucked me up, but like in great ways, it’s been so, 

 

Kimberley: literally breaks my heart every single day. I say that all the time. 

 

Maggie: Oh man, I expected it to be this like beautiful, like, ugh, I’m giving my kid what I didn’t have. I just feel bitch slapped like over and over again.

 

And then it’s like, but then I’m like, bitch slapped with joy when I have like moment where I like apologize. Yeah. I’m like, oh, is he able to give them what? It’s just, it’s a ride. Um, but I told my. Son the other day I was like, I can’t believe I get, I’m lucky enough that I get to be the one who’s your mom.

 

And like so many times parents will be like in, in counseling, they’ll be like, my kid tells me they feel like I don’t love them, but I tell them I love them all the time. And then they’re like, are they being dramatic? Is this attention seeking? And like, here’s what I would say to that. The real issue and the thing that we have to fucking stop doing.

 

Is in the good moments when they’re well-behaved and meeting your expectations, it’s, I’m so lucky that I get to be your mom. Mm-hmm. And when they mess up, we’re like, you’re lucky. I even love you right now. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: It’s that, it’s the revoking our love, our willingness to care. It’s, it’s, it’s like, I love you when you’re like that.

 

I don’t, I’m annoyed. Can’t stand you. Sending you away. Right. Like revoking that. Kids are loved and then they’re not loved, and then they’re loved again, and then they’re not loved. Like that’s the thing. If I could like. Put my finger on one thing. It’s that, yeah, we have to learn. And we’ve never seen this done.

 

I’ve never seen another, like, I built this because I didn’t see this anywhere. Yeah. And I like my way through the darkest forest. I’m trying to figure this out, but like what we need to do. Remember when you would mess up as a kid and you’d have that feeling, your parents would look at you with that base that said, Ugh, like, I’m disappointed.

 

I’m, you know, you’re, you’re a disappointment, whatever. And we had fallen outta their favor. And then. Can you just imagine for a moment if they come back around, which they didn’t. They would just ignore us until they were over it, and then we all pretended like nothing happened. But just for a moment, just for funsies, let’s just imagine that they came back and they said, I know that that’s not who you really are.

 

I know you. I know who you really are, and I know that this mistake is not. Representative of who you really are deep down. So you’re gonna have to make this right, you’re gonna have to show up for the impact of your actions, and you’re gonna have to face the consequences of your actions. I’m not gonna shield you from them.

 

But you and I are good. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah, 

 

Maggie: I love you. I’ll walk beside you. That’s the thing that changes everything for kids. That’s what I’ve seen over and over and over again in counseling and coaching and with people who follow my framework. It’s like that’s, you have to shift. And in the book I have five adjustments and that is number four.

 

Stand by them that we’ve gotta say, I don’t stand by what you did, but I will always stand by you. My son lie. Last year and I, I got like full body goosebumps and like welled up. ’cause I said that like, it just, I don’t know that day I was emotional, but I was like, I don’t stand by, you know, lying. I don’t stand by telling people something to, you know, look better or to whatever.

 

I don’t stand by that, but I will always stand by you. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. Uh, there’s so much I need to unpack here.

 

Okay. So, so folks who are listening, um, let me just, I’m just doing a little internal check like. I feel pretty terrible right now. 

 

Maggie: No, no, 

 

Kimberley: no. It’s not bad. It’s not bad. I think it’s all just coming up inside me like, you know, there’s so much about this, of like how it felt to be a kid. Also, how it feels to be the mom who’s made mistakes, the.

 

Empathy for your parents who didn’t probably had it done to them. 

 

Maggie: Yeah, 

 

Kimberley: like it’s just a lot. So like I I, I, if you feel hear me tearing up a little, that might be why, and I’m actually here for it. As I was reading this, I was like, this is the perfect time. Like if you had have given me this, my kids are 14 and 10, 11.

 

If you hadn’t given this to me five years ago, I mightn’t have finished it. It might’ve been a little too activating for me, and I was really excited that I, it’s not that it, what you wrote was activating, it’s just that it, I’m this kid, right? This is me. And so it was so powerful. What’s so interesting is how you just talked to your son and gave us that demonstration is how.

 

I teach people to talk to themselves. Mm-hmm. When they screw up and they lied and they have to like, work through it as an adult. And, and I know that’s a big part of what you do as well, is we’re like reparenting ourselves and we’re parenting our children and, and it’s just, it’s all over the place. I, I’m, I know I’m going all over the place, but I wanna read something to everybody if it’s okay with you.

 

Um. This is from the chapter on shame. It says, you might not think you know much about shame, but it’s running in the background of your life every single day, whether you realize it or not, the guilt you feel for resting is laced with shame. 

 

Maggie: Oh, gives me the goosebump. You got me. You got me on 

 

Kimberley: this one.

 

The belief that you quote unquote shouldn’t be tired or don’t deserve rest, the panic you feel over disappointing someone is laced with shame. Shame profoundly impacts how you show up in the world and how much space you believe you’re allowed to take up. I mean, again, like. This is like my eating disorder.

 

Describe perfectly right. It shapes how you see yourself and what you expect from others. It tells you what you deserve and demands. You shape shift into the most lovable version of yourself to be safe. 

 

Maggie: Mm. 

 

Kimberley: Right. Like that’s. Shame’s best definition right there. So thank you for writing that. 

 

Maggie: Aw, thank you.

 

Um, 

 

Kimberley: so good. 

 

Maggie: I cried a lot writing this book. 

 

Kimberley: Oh, I can imagine. I 

 

Maggie: can imagine like, ow that hurt coming out. Ow. 

 

Kimberley: I know. But it’s healing in and of itself. Like when I wrote my self-compassion book, there was such healing that came from just putting the words on the page and being like, Ooh, something just shifted in me.

 

Mm-hmm. How does you know you in. The book, good Kids. You talk about this identity of being the good one. How does growing up as this, like responsible, so many people with anxiety have hyper responsibility or this easy child, how does it set them up to carry shame in their later life? 

 

Maggie: Hmm. Well, I think it’s important to notice, I mean, where to start.

 

We could talk for 12 hours on this, but like it’s important to notice the nervous system piece here.

 

Kimberley: Now, as you know, I have a private practice. I have six amazing therapists in Calabasas, California. However, we do not. Take insurance now, if you are looking for insurance covered OCD or BFRB treatment, I wanna let you know about no CD, no CD provides face-to-face live video sessions with specialized licensed OCD therapists.

 

Now their therapists use exposure and response prevention. We know this is the gold standard for OCD, so you can be absolutely confirmed that you’re in the right place there and they have a clinically. Prove an app that helps you stay connected to your therapist and others who have OCD between sessions, so you’ll always feel supported.

 

Now the cool thing is no CD is available in all 50 US states and even internationally, and they accept most insurance plans making it affordable. And accessible. We love that. Now, if you think you might have OCD or you’re struggling to manage your symptoms, you can book a free call. Just click the link in the show notes@nocd.com.

 

I am honored to partner with no cd. I want to remind you that recovery is possible. Please do not forget that now, big hugs, and let’s get back to the show. 

 

Maggie: I love the way I, I think in order to heal shame, we have to understand parts work. You know, I love IFS, internal family systems, parts work and we’ve gotta understand the nervous system piece.

 

’cause again, if we don’t understand those unconscious level pieces, then we’re just kind of. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Like we’re not, we’re not actually doing anything deep. And that’s where I’m sure you have clients too, that come to me and they’ve done years of therapy and feel like nothing is actually helping.

 

That’s ’cause we, we really do have to get to an unconscious level to work on shame and you have to work with someone who is licensed and trained to do that. Shame is the most instant and profound dysregulation of our nervous system. 

 

Kimberley: Mm-hmm. 

 

Maggie: Agreed. Shame is experienced in the body as a threat to our survival.

 

So, you know, that’s why we do experience the thought of someone being disappointed in us, as if our actual life is in danger. Mm-hmm. I 

 

Kimberley: believe it. 

 

Maggie: Um, we, so it’s, you know, never feeling like you can relax or let your guard down because your body is like in survival. I mean, our body literally thinks is, is experiencing life as if a bear attack is imminent at any moment.

 

Like, that’s how it experiences the thought of someone being disappointed in you. Right. Um, good kids are so freaking hard on themselves. I was, I had two therapists tell me I was the most viciously critical person they’d ever met. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. You wrote that in your book, that that’s, that’s a, that’s a good award to win that one.

 

Maggie: I mean, I was though, and I like 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Talked it at some point along the way. I’m like, wow. Like I am so kind, so encouraging. Like probably the most encouraging person you’ve ever met who is like, gentle and I love all of you and you’re safe with me. And then just the one day, the contrast of that, just. Slap me upside the face, like, whoa.

 

Um, I couldn’t enjoy a win because it wasn’t a win. It was always a failure. Right. I could have done something better. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And I should have done something better. Right. And just the punishing, I mean, I think one of the most satisfying parts of the book to write was the misguided beliefs that our parents had, because what I’ve run into.

 

With trying to like the, I’m not mad, I’m disappointed. Video going viral and TikTok and all of the clinicians coming for me in the comments was fascinating. I think there are a lot of parents that and, and ex and experts in our field that stand 10 toes down or did at least a couple years ago. Hopefully not, hopefully we’re chipping away at that, but like, that’s like worst case scenario for me.

 

And then like the, maybe the best case scenario are people are like, okay. I hear you. It’s damaging. You’re right. It was really hard to hear that as a kid myself, but like, what about when I am disappointed in my kid? What? What then? Right. And I remember writing that part of the book. I’m like, okay, so we’ve got the disappointment and what informs the disappointment or expectations?

 

If a child, like when you’re disappointed in someone, it’s because you expected them to do one thing and they didn’t. You know, I expected more from you. Yeah. So I’m like, interesting. Okay. And expectations for children come from beliefs about children. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Right. And what’s realistic? What is, okay, what is healthy to expect of them?

 

Like the way my therapist has schooled me through motherhood on like. Ooh, we’re expecting a little bit too much again. Ooh, she’s only six. We can’t, Nope. Mayday Mayday. Like, 

 

Kimberley: right. 

 

Maggie: Adjust expectations. That’s another one of the five adjustments is check your expectations. Right. And I’ve had to like learn a whole new language about what is actually realistic.

 

To expect of children because I was expected to be this mini adult regulate the grownups around me. Like somehow I, I talk about the caterpillar and the butterfly like I was caterpillar made to believe I should be a butterfly, and I did my freaking best. But like, I’m still not a butterfly. Right? Yeah.

 

And so I’ve had to like, when we think about that, when we think about you are expecting things of yourself that are actually objectively impossible, and there was this moment, I was sitting in a Publix parking lot a couple years ago. It was Do you ever have these moments where you’re like, just remember the whole thing?

 

I don’t know. It was, my inner critic was being real vicious with me, and I was like, I’m all fucking done with this. Like it was so clear to me in that moment is like my inner critic is being vicious and they’re like, you shouldn’t be so tired. Like you shouldn’t be so exhausted. And I’m like, based on what?

 

Exactly, like from self, from my highest self. I’m like, okay, inner critic. Go ahead and tell me like based on what, where’d you come up with that? Because you’re holding me to the standard that feels pretty damn arbitrary and it doesn’t feel like it’s taking into account the fact that I’ve had a sick kid.

 

I haven’t slept well for two nights. Both kids are in a developmental leap. I’ve had a really hard week at work. I barely eaten today. Like I actually feel like when I, when you really think about it, the fact that I’m tired today actually makes perfect sense. So tell me more about how I shouldn’t be so tired, right?

 

Like 

 

Kimberley: yeah, 

 

Maggie: it’s just like. What emerged? What like rose up inside was like, this is what my best looks like right now. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And my best right now is good enough. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Like, like a flames rose out of me. Like just like I’m done beating myself up and holding myself to this random standard that’s not even based in reality.

 

I don’t know who made it up, but it doesn’t actually even take into account what’s going on in my life. 

 

Kimberley: Right. 

 

Maggie: But that’s what our parents did with us. It was like no matter what excellence. And being fine and being well-behaved and being able to control yourself and, right. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. Uh, I, I am, there’s so much to bring into this, right.

 

For me personally, it was, I, I mean, I’ve always had some criticism, but I think it was. Just less about the criticism and about the genuine terror that I would disappoint my parents, who I am obsessed with. And that the, the, I think we talk about these, like there was many good things about that in that it forced me to be proactive and hard worker and all these, like we get positive reinforcement by all of culture.

 

Maggie: Yeah. 

 

Kimberley: But I remember at like 24 maybe, I was like, I’ve built this, all this stuff. Hmm. I still don’t feel secure at all. 

 

Maggie: Mm-hmm. 

 

Kimberley: Like I, it’s like I feel like I’m at the top of the mountain. Yay. But now what if I fall down from the mountain? It was just ter it was as terrifying as anything. So, I don’t know. I just, there’s so much fear.

 

I feel like the fear and the shame just kept te teeter tottering back and forth of like, when am I gonna lose everything and my life falls apart and all. And like you said, the shame piece of like, everyone will just abandon me. 

 

Maggie: I remember. Bne Brown talking about a study. Again, I don’t remember anything.

 

I have like re raging memory issues. I mean just lots of dissociation, but it’s like really something when I can remember something. Well, and I can remember where I was. I was in the CBS parking lot on this one right across from the Publix all me around the same time, and I heard Brene Brown talking about the study on shame prone self-talk versus guilt on self-talk.

 

There have been a couple, but there, there are these studies. One in particular I’m thinking about that was a longitudinal study and they went in at fifth grade and they determined where kids fell on the spectrum of shame, prone, I’m bad when they did something wrong. Two, I did something bad, which is guilt prone.

 

Right? And they came back in. In 12th grade and like reassessed. And the only way that you saw the shame pro kids who do something, you know, make a mistake and go right to I’m bad, move over to guilt prone was a parenting intervention. 

 

Kimberley: Hmm. 

 

Maggie: Not therapy, a parenting intervention and. The shame at 12th grade, the shame prone kids, forgive me, I don’t remember the exact statistic.

 

The number in my mind is like 400% more likely to experience poor outcomes like substance use and abuse, eating disorders, anxiety, depression, self harm, reckless um, sexual behavior, just like a risky sexual behavior, reckless behavior as a child. The guilt prone kids who could make a mistake and say, I did something bad.

 

There was an invoice correlation with those, and the study concluded that the biggest determining factor of whe whether kids fall, shame prone or guilt prone is parenting style. Like the way that stopped me in my damn tracks. I really think I’m here today because of that study and just here, like the way that she just connected the dots right to parenting.

 

I just remember being like, oh my God, that’s it. Like it’s, we can have parents who love us so much. Like really do want us to feel happy and good about ourselves. Right. But the only tools they’ve been given are ones that they’ve known that were used on them. And the ones that they’ve known. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And so if their parents came in with that energy.

 

They haven’t healed it. They’re gonna be those people who I’ve had in my office over the years who argue with me that I needed to be told I’m not mad, I’m disappointed. It made me better. I do go through them one by one in the book. ’cause I’m like, I would like to reality check these gently for all of you.

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Like, I get it. I get why we, we intellectualize it. We try to think, no, no I needed that. That made me better. But like, I don’t know. I think there is a different way, and I just think our parents didn’t know, like they really didn’t. And how could it? Who, what? What other way could this have gone?

 

Nobody’s ever taught this, 

 

Kimberley: and I say that to my kids all the time. This is the first time I’ve ever done this before. I’m sorry, you’ve got me at my novice. Like, um, but I think what happens, and I actually again, like as I read this, there was a couple of moments, like, there are a couple of things I’ve done that I, you know, wish I could take back.

 

You know, things I’ve said early in my kids’ life, of course, um, they weren’t even that bad, but it’s just, I, I could have handled it better, but I, I do remember in that moment this like firm, like, no, this is how we raise strong children. And then I had to be like, there was, there’s a curie as a parent.

 

Because I noticed like we have shame so much as parents that we’re not doing it right. There’s so much pressure is there has to be so much curiosity instead of judgment for our parenting. Um, ’cause it’s hard and I think that for being a human in and of itself, like we’re all just sort of screwing up and it’s scary and hard all the time.

 

Um, 

 

Maggie: well, and this is about being a perfect parent. It’s a, it’s impossible. And B, like on our hardest days, we’re still. Breaking so many cycles from our childhood. Yeah. Like so many, like on my worst parenting days, I can still be like objectively did so many things well today. Yeah. Had a couple of rough moments and I think we’ve got to call bullshit on this idea that like, we should be a perfect parent.

 

I’m so fucking tired of parenting experts. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Holding themselves like, like standing up on their perch. Like they don’t mess up all the time. Like 

 

Kimberley: Right. 

 

Maggie: I, it makes me want to scream like I fuck up all the time. Right all the time, like I’ve had this ongoing, people are like, no way. Okay. I’ve had this ongoing circle back with my daughter who’s now 11 and a half.

 

We’ve probably had it four times over the past, like five or six years. I remember it. It was yesterday, we were headed to a school event and she said something, I wish I could remember what she said, but I had this like shame response, like the wind by my ears moment and my face got flushed and I’m like, oh fuck.

 

Oh fuck. Oh fuck. And when we parked the car, I turned around and I was like, can we have a quick, like heart to heart for a second? And she’s like, okay. And so as we’re walking, I’m like, um, so if you need time to think about it, you, I’m not trying to like. Ambush you right now, but like I want you to think about this and tell me at this.

 

Feels like true for you. And I want you to know it’s safe to tell me if this is like how it feels for you. Am I making you feel like nothing you do is good enough? And like her face dropped and I was like, oh fuck. And like all I can do is acknowledge it, see the impact that I’m having and say, oh shit.

 

Not really. I don’t say, but like, right. Like see, like the fact that I clock that as a bad thing. It’s light years ahead of where I could have, yeah, right. I noticed it. I clocked it. I felt the like, oh, in my body, the guilt and quite a bit of shame. And I said, I am so sorry that I’m making you feel like that.

 

That’s how I felt my whole life. I get it and I’m gonna figure this out. Yeah, I’m gonna take this to my therapist. I’m gonna, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take me, but like, this matters to me and I don’t wanna make you feel that way. And I’m probably gonna make this mistake again. And like you can tell me, you can say, mom, you’re making me feel this way and I will never get mad.

 

It’s not your job, but like if, if you clock it before I do, it is safe to come to me and like, Hey, you know, that’s, I fuck up all the time, but I also always repair. And like, it’s okay if you messed up last week, last year, last month, I mean, however long ago. Just kids. Like it means so much when a parent can come back and own something, no matter how far back it was.

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Think how impactful. Like it’s okay, we can repair things. Like relationships can be repaired. Yes. When we’re with that energy, 

 

Kimberley: it’s funny you mentioned this ’cause it was actually ties straight into the name. I mean, that’s so powerful and, and I feel like I have had so many of those moments with my children where, you know, I, I just love, I remember actually once having a life coach, I think it was, who was like, if someone brings up something about you, there’s a chance that it’s 1% true.

 

So acknowledge that. Stop defending yourself and just say, yeah, that I do, do that. Sometimes you’re right and that. Has changed so many of my relationships. Um, but this ties perfectly into, uh, my next question, which is many of our listeners, uh, who, who are so kind and conscientious all the time, they feel intense guilt when they’ve disappointed someone.

 

Why does saying no? Or setting a boundary of some kind, uh, create and trigger so much shame for those people who are people pleasers. 

 

Maggie: So I’m gonna hold your hand while I say this. It’s because you were made to feel like that over and over 

 

Kimberley: and 

 

Maggie: over again. And like parts of us wanna protect us. Like it’s when you’re a child and your parent is unsafe, we will beyond logical reason, make up a whole story about how it’s actually our fault because it is psychologically, I mean.

 

Terrifying as a child to be like, oh my gosh, my parent’s not a good parent. My parent is not meeting my needs as a child. Not that a child would think about it that way, but like we have to see them as safe and stable or else like, your brain can’t continue. Like, and like this is where children, you know, have mental breakdowns, right?

 

And so for so many of us, our body just, and shame kind of promotes this. We made up a story where it’s always our fault. Right. So instead of seeing it as like, that’s a really messed up thing to say to a kid where like, Ooh, if I hadn’t done that, they wouldn’t have had to yell at me. So it’s all my fault.

 

Like, we come up with some sort of narrative, but like the reality is like, I, with are you mad at me with that whole struggle, which is not that different. It’s kind of a, a first cousin of this, like, how many of us have had a relationship in our lives, but really in our early part of our lives where we experienced someone being mad at us.

 

And making us feel like they still loved us. 

 

Kimberley: Hmm. 

 

Maggie: Like I had zero times, like I only really have like four, five relationships now at 43, and one of them is my therapist, where I feel like we can be mad each other and it’s safe and I know that they still love me. Right. So like of course you’re terrified, like you were made like I think for so many of us, our parents.

 

Brought that energy of like, I am so disappointed in you. I expected more of you. The issue was you, the issue was that their expectations were insane and inappropriate. Right. It’s like they could have expected you to be a flamingo and they could be disappointed that you’re not a flamingo. Like it doesn’t Yeah.

 

Disappointment valid. Their expectation is the problem. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: You know what I’m saying? 

 

Kimberley: I was the youngest. I don’t really remember it, and this, I’m just sharing for the sake of sharing, but. I don’t really remember my parents being mad at me once. I don’t remember them saying much at all, shaming. But I do know that I knew what the standard was because all my siblings were good kids and perform high performers, hard workers.

 

It was like an unsaid. Expectation. It’s like, as I said to you when I was listening, I was like, oh, like my parents, I love them. Like they didn’t do anything wrong. But it’s like, and I’m not here to blame them at all about anything, but like, it was just, it was like a theater show in front of me of like, this is the, the expectation doesn’t even need to be said.

 

These are some, your siblings are smart and they’re intelligent, and they’re good kids, and they’re kind kids and they obey. And so it’s just like you didn’t, I didn’t even. Consider breaking the rules. 

 

Maggie: Right. 

 

Kimberley: It’s just so interesting and But yet I talk with clients all the time who get verbal, like it was more verbal.

 

Maggie: Yeah. 

 

Kimberley: I just don’t remember. Or maybe I’ve completely blacked it out and I’m not sure. 

 

Maggie: Yeah. There’s another piece too that I think is. Present for nearly all of us. And I did talk about it in the book, like where we start having tantrums around 18 months and we don’t generally have memories until five.

 

Yeah. Like it’s just our brains are just, when everything is new and our brain is wired for survival, it’s gonna prioritize the current environment and like making sense of all the newness over. Right. And so we have a good three and a half years in there that you probably did show up as a toddler. Yeah.

 

And real toddler vibes, and that was met with parents who are woefully unprepared to respond to that with like understanding and compassion, right? Like a good parent has good kids. I feel like misbehavior in kids, even now, like in the year of our Lord 2026, like misbehavior is seen as an indictment on parenting.

 

Like get a hold of your kids. Like you’re not your kid, misbehave, you’re not a good parent. Like. There was so much of that bullshit pressure on our parents, and so I think they, I think by the time you turned five and were finally making memories, it was so implanted like at such a deep level, right, that it doesn’t go well for me.

 

And your nervous was like, oh no, we do not. We do not push back. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: The way that we, and you may have always been, I think a lot of good kids are sort of, there’s a temperament component here too. Like you are always maybe gonna be wired to be a more compliant child, a more, right. I think there’s a fight flight tendency for a lot of good kids that we just have an underlying tendency towards.

 

Uh, 

 

Kimberley: yeah. 

 

Maggie: On freeze response. And I think the bad kids were not bad, but. Are more likely to have a fight flight. And we’re starting to see that in the literature. We’re starting to see Yeah. Validated that they 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: You just, were always gonna kind of do that and so it didn’t take as much to teach you how to be a good kid.

 

Right, 

 

Kimberley: right. Listen, even this morning I was listening. I, I and I, I know I’m gonna respect your time, but I was listening to the podcast Smart List this morning. And they were talking, they were interviewing like Chris Jenner or something and they were all talking about how it’s the best feeling when someone compliments you on how kind and and respectful your kid is.

 

And I was thinking like, yeah, it’s true. Like it is the best feeling. Like I don’t need my kids to get a’s, I don’t need them to be good at baseball. I don’t need them to be anything like, but if you get that compliment, you’ve got a good kid. Mm-hmm. It’s a little high. 

 

Maggie: Yeah. 

 

Kimberley: But it’s not until right now that I’m realizing like, Ooh, yikes.

 

I, that’s, that’s, that’s where all this comes from. 

 

Maggie: Mm-hmm. 

 

Kimberley: Right? 

 

Maggie: Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s funny, we, there was somebody at our pool. Who compliment, who say, your kids are so good. Like two or two or three years ago. And like I had alarm bells. I’m like, don’t say that about my kid. You know, like the part of me is like, no, they’re not good.

 

But I think what I strive for is a well-regulated child, right? Like when a child is like, this is oversimplified, but zero to 10, 10 is where our body is gonna force a. Whether we like it or not, right. Um, this is where we’re crying and we don’t know why we’re screaming and we don’t know why us as adults and us as kids, right?

 

Yeah. And then we can go above 10, but our brains have to take us offline. And many of us spend our lives above 10. When we had a parent who struggle with addiction or, um, for me, personality disorders where it was just. Unpredictable and inconsistent, and I just kind of didn’t know what version I was gonna get.

 

So it’s just very stressful when kids, when humans move into about seven out of 10, that’s where it seems like we move into dysregulation in our nervous system. Right? And so if I ask the same child like, we have to leave the park, or we have to leave the party, or you need to put your pajamas on, or whatever it is, transitional stress, if that child was at like a three or four.

 

The frustration that they would feel that they have to leave. They’d still have some space between where they are. And 10, if we do that same exact scenario and they’re at a seven or eight, we’re going to hit 10. Like no matter what their body is like it, it Gabor Mate talks about when we bottle our feelings, it’s like holding beach balls underwater.

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: And eventually our body, it takes a lot of energy to do that and eventually it kind of runs out of the energy. I can’t hold it anymore. Right. The pressure becomes too great and that’s when they explode to the surface. And so I think it’s just like I want my kids to be able to feel safe feeling their feelings, right?

 

And so I’ve had to do so much therapy to learn how to be safe when they have their feelings to be safe, when they’re needy. Like I’ve had to go back for the parts of me that were made to feel so unlovable, so hard to love, so obnoxious, annoying, dramatic. My mother called me poor little pitiful pearl all the time to like tame me back into being good.

 

So like. Pitiful is like, oh my God, the deepest, like, you wanna put me horizontal, like the pitiful shame is like the deepest. And so my goal is not well-behaved kids. My goal is to allow my children to experience the stress of life, right? To feel safe coming to me. ’cause I’ve shown them a pattern of being a safe person who gets curious.

 

That’s another one of the five adjustments. Critical to curious, right? Who instead of moving right into judgment is like, Hmm, tell me more. Or when my kids are having, you know, an attitude or whatever and I’m regulated. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: If I’m managing my stress and I’m staying down here, then I have space bef once I hit seven, it’s like all my parts are like suited up and ready to take over.

 

Um, but to let them. You know, know that they can trust. I’ll call mom and she’ll be a safe person right now. She’ll help me feel better, not worse about the situation. She won’t judge me. She’ll be curious. She’ll believe the best in me. She’ll remember who I really am and know that this isn’t me. Right. And let them feel safe falling to pieces in front of me so that they can release and regulate, you know?

 

Kimberley: Yeah. So 

 

Maggie: that most of their life, they’re hitting the stressful moments with the space to be well-behaved. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. Does 

 

Maggie: that make sense? 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. Beautiful. All right, one more question. If shame has been the voice guiding someone’s choices for years, what does it look like to begin letting that more kinder voice lead instead?

 

Maggie: Hmm. So I think I wanna tell a story really quick. I, I don’t, have you read the whole book or are you still reading it? 

 

Kimberley: I have like half a chapter to go. 

 

Maggie: Oh wow. You’re all there. Okay. So my girlfriend Logan, um, I had this moment with her where she’s a trauma therapist too. We’re doing a podcast actually at some point.

 

We haven’t gotten it together to release it, but I really think so many of us, like so much of the literature in coaching and whatever. Knowledge out there is that like it, it’s like this. You can’t love your other people until you truly love yourself. And I think that’s bullshit. Agree. I actually agree. I actually think you, you can love other people really hard, but you can’t fully love yourself until you’ve been fully loved by someone else.

 

Like we have to have someone see the most. Shameful versions of us, or the versions of us that we’ve been made to feel are the most shameful. We have to experience someone. For me, it was my therapist, Sharon was the first person who saw those parts and like didn’t flinch, didn’t look away. Just kind of like, yep.

 

And you know, and, and I think we should have gotten that from our parents. Our parents didn’t know how to be that for us. Nobody had ever done that for us, for them. So like why, how could they have done that for us? But like when someone can see those parts of us and love us anyway, it’s like there, it’s, so I had this moment with Logan where I had just a full fucking come apart, right?

 

Just like crash and burn moment and you know, those things that we feel shame about and we’re like, I can never tell. I’ll take this one to the grave. Right? I blurted one of those out. Actually, my brain’s protecting me. I don’t even know which one it was. And I don’t, probably doesn’t either, but I had that moment of like, oh fuck.

 

Oh God. 

 

Kimberley: Put it back in. Put it back in. 

 

Maggie: Yeah. And so I made a joke. I’m like, so I, I really, wow. I just said that out loud. Like that was one of those things I was gonna take to the grave. And Logan goes, okay, what else do you believe? I wouldn’t love you through? Tell me so I can show you that. I will. And I just remember being like.

 

I’ve never been loved like this before, like ever in my life. This is a new thing. This is a whole brand new experience. What do you mean there’s nothing about me that you wouldn’t love, like you will love? And she’s like, I will and try me. And like that is the vibe that I think we need to bring to ourselves.

 

Kimberley: Yeah, 

 

Maggie: gotta do the parts work. We’ve gotta go back for the parts that are hurting. We’ve gotta recognize all of our protector parts that are just working so hard to try to keep us safe and make sure nobody ever finds out that we’re actually not perfect or whatever the thing is that they’re all trying to keep anybody from.

 

You know, the parts of you that you’ve been made to feel are unlovable, you know? But I don’t know, like I had this bathroom mirror moment that I didn’t have a space to write about in the book. Eating disorder history as well. And after I had my son, I had a very rough pregnancy and birth with him. He was born early, very early.

 

I was in the hospital for two weeks. My water had broken by the time he was born, I think I’d been on like 20 course of antibiotics and two weeks like it was, I should be like a case study. Anyway, when he was like. Four months old. I got out of the shower and I was trying so hard to love that body that it just, you know, brought this baby, been through.

 

I mean, I think by that point it was like close to 30 courses of antibiotics in like six months, you know? Yeah. Insane. Intellectually, I’m like, this body’s been through hell. It produced a whole human. We need to be proud of her. But I couldn’t, and my inner critic showed up in the bathroom mirror that day.

 

It was the first time, like I had a conversation with my inner critic. It always like had me in a choke hold, but it was kind of like below my conscious awareness and my inner critic rolls up and I have this whole conversation. My inner critic’s like, yeah, whoa, we gotta do something about that. And I’m like, here you fucking go again.

 

Yeah, I hate you. What is wrong with you? Like, why are you always so mean to me? And my inner critic goes. I’m not trying to be mean, I’m really not, and meant it, and I’m like, then what are you trying to do? My inner critic goes, it’s just that your mother loves you more when you’re thin, and so it’s my job to make sure you’re lovable to her.

 

And I’m like, oh my God, you’re. You’re right. No lies detected, but like that is how I was made to feel over and over and over again. And so my, these parts of us are looking at these patterns from childhood. They noticed every time we were told, I’m not mad, I’m disappointed. Or our parents had that face, they clocked.

 

Shame is is experience as a threat to survival, right? Yeah. Like, I’m gonna lose my people. I’m a child, I’m not gonna make it. And so we’ve got this whole, whole code. Of how you’ve gotta be to be lovable. And in my code, section 42 says, you must be thin to be lovable. And so these parts are like, but you have to be thin.

 

And they really are trying to protect us. They love us, they want us to be safe. And a lot of our work is going, what’s my code? 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: I have an activity I do with my clients where I’m like, we’re gonna start paying attention to the inner critic and what she says. Right. And like when she shows up with like, you should be blank, or You shouldn’t be blank.

 

Let’s start writing those down. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah. 

 

Maggie: Start clocking those at a conscious level because then we’re like, oh, so there’s a part of me that believes she’s not lovable when she’s not thin. Okay, now we can work on this. 

 

Kimberley: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, I love that answer. Thank you for sharing that. I actually think I heard you talk about that on social media.

 

Yeah. Is that correct? Mm-hmm. Yes, I 

 

Maggie: do. A while ago. Yeah. 

 

Kimberley: Oh, I could literally go on and on. I’m shocked. I didn’t like totally break down ugly crying in this episode. So shocked. But for another day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Where can people. Know more about you. I’ve taken some of your courses, like about the book, like tell me where we can learn more about you.

 

Maggie: Thank you. So maggie nick.com. Um, I have a membership at Camp Lovable, which is growing into a bigger thing. It’s kind of my world. Um, my, my membership is called Good Girl Rehab, so it’s just for women globally and we do the work together and it’s a campy camp lovable, so we’re all just chilling in our.

 

Our camp gear. Um, we have a bonfire and you get a care package every month from me. But um, on the socials, I’m Maggie with per spectacles ’cause I got my turquoise glasses on. And then nike neck.com for everything else. 

 

Kimberley: Amazing. We’ll have links in the show notes. Thank you for being here. It’s truly an honor.

 

Maggie: Thank you for having me. I love this conversation. 

 

Kimberley: Oh, I’m so glad.

 

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