OCD Has a Strategy. Here’s How to Beat It (with Reid Wilson) | Ep. 494
We are partnered with NOCD, a leading provider of OCD treatment. With NOCD, you can do live video sessions with a therapist who specializes in OCD and Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) therapy, and get 24/7 support between sessions. NOCD Therapists accept most major insurance plans to make treatment more accessible. Book a free 15-minute call to learn more.
In this powerful conversation with Dr. Reid Wilson, I explore why trying to quiet OCD often keeps us trapped and how learning to stop playing defense and start playing offense can transform the recovery journey.
In this episode, I discuss:
- Why the very strategies you’ve been using to feel better may actually be keeping OCD in charge.
- The hidden cost of constantly playing defense against intrusive thoughts and fears.
- How to stop treating OCD thoughts like important signals and start seeing them as noise.
- Why courage comes before confidence and how to take action even when you’re scared.
- Practical ways to “misbehave” against OCD by breaking its rules and disrupting compulsive patterns.
- The mindset shift that can help you move toward a life where thoughts and feelings no longer run the show.
If you’re exhausted from fighting your mind and wondering if recovery is truly possible, this episode offers a hopeful new way forward.
Stop Playing Defense With OCD: How to Change the Game and Reclaim Your Life
If you’ve been trying to quiet your OCD brain by arguing with it, reassuring yourself, pushing thoughts away, or trying to make them disappear, I want you to know something:
You’re not doing anything wrong.
You’re doing what most people naturally do when they’re scared.
But there is one problem.
OCD designed those strategies.
And as long as you’re following OCD’s playbook, you’re playing a game you cannot win. This idea came up in my recent conversation with world-renowned OCD expert Dr. Reid Wilson, and it completely shifts how we think about recovery.
The goal isn’t to get rid of your obsessions.
The goal is to stop playing defense and start playing offense.
Let’s talk about what that actually means.
The Exhaustion of Playing Defense
Living with OCD can feel like being on high alert all day long.
You’re:
- Monitoring your thoughts
- Trying to prevent bad things from happening
- Looking for certainty
- Reassuring yourself
- Checking
- Analyzing
- Avoiding
And even if these strategies work temporarily, OCD always comes back.
With another thought.
Another “what if.”
Another urgent story that suddenly feels important.
Over time, this takes an enormous toll.
You can’t fully focus on your work.
You can’t fully enjoy your family.
You can’t be fully present in your life because so much of your energy is going toward fighting your mind.
It’s exhausting.
And it’s understandable if you’re tired.
OCD Wants You to Stay in Defense Mode
One of the most powerful things Dr. Wilson shared is this:
OCD wants to control your attention.
It does this by creating fear.
It says:
- “Watch out.”
- “This is dangerous.”
- “You need to solve this right now.”
- “I know how to make this better.”
Then it gives you a compulsion.
And the compulsion often works, for a little while.
That’s why it’s so hard to stop.
The relief feels real.
But every time you obey OCD’s rules, you’re teaching your brain:
This fear mattered.
And the cycle starts all over again.
Recovery Requires Courage
One of the hardest parts of recovery is that you’re being asked to stop doing the very things that have helped you feel safe.
Even if those strategies aren’t working in the long run, letting them go can feel terrifying.
Your mind may say:
“What if this time is different?”
“What if I really need to figure this one out?”
“What if something terrible happens?”
This is where courage comes in.
Recovery is not the absence of fear.
Recovery is stepping forward even when fear is present.
You Don’t Need Confidence First
I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about recovery.
People often believe:
“I’ll do ERP when I feel ready.”
“I’ll do exposures when I feel confident.”
Unfortunately, confidence usually comes after you begin practicing new behaviors.
You don’t start strong.
You become strong by repeatedly doing hard things.
You begin with uncertainty.
You begin with doubt.
You begin while feeling afraid.
And then your experience teaches your brain:
“I can do this.”
OCD Is Not You
Another important shift is learning to separate yourself from OCD.
Many people say:
“My brain says…”
“My mind is telling me…”
“I think…”
But Dr. Wilson encourages us to think differently.
Try saying:
- “My OCD says…”
- “The disorder says…”
- “My obsession is telling me…”
Why?
Because it reminds us that intrusive thoughts are not facts.
They are symptoms.
They are unwanted messages.
And while they may be in your brain, they are not who you are.
The Goal Isn’t Fewer Thoughts
This may surprise you.
The goal of recovery is not to eliminate obsessions.
The goal is to change your relationship with them.
Some days you may have very few intrusive thoughts.
Other days you may feel completely bombarded.
That doesn’t mean you’re failing.
In fact, every obsession can become another opportunity to practice your recovery skills.
Instead of saying:
“Oh no, another thought.”
You can practice saying:
“Okay. Here’s another opportunity to respond differently.”
The Biggest Shift: This Is Noise, Not a Signal
This may be the most important lesson of all.
OCD wants you to believe that every thought is a signal.
A warning.
An emergency.
Proof that something needs attention.
But recovery begins when you learn:
This is noise.
Not every thought deserves your attention.
Not every feeling needs solving.
Not every urge requires action.
This is the mindset that changes everything.
How Do You Learn Not to Care?
I know what many people are asking:
“But how do I stop caring about the thoughts?”
The answer is:
You practice.
Over and over.
You notice the obsession.
You choose not to engage.
You bring your attention back to your life.
Again.
And again.
And again.
Recovery isn’t one big breakthrough.
It’s a series of small repetitions.
A Simple Exercise: Postpone the Compulsion
One strategy Dr. Wilson often teaches is incredibly simple.
When OCD says:
“You need to do this right now.”
Try saying:
“I’ll do it later.”
Maybe in:
- 10 minutes
- 30 minutes
- After dinner
- When I get home
The goal isn’t perfection.
The goal is to create a little bit of space.
Because OCD thrives on urgency.
It says:
“Now. Immediately. Don’t wait.”
Creating even a tiny pause teaches your brain something powerful:
I don’t have to obey every urge.
And sometimes, by the time the delay is over, the urgency has already faded.
That can be a huge “aha” moment.
Start Messing With the Pattern
Dr. Wilson also talks about something I absolutely love:
Misbehaving.
Getting into “good trouble.”
Breaking OCD’s rules.
If you normally perform a ritual with your right hand, try your left.
If you always stand, try sitting.
If you usually check immediately, wait.
If you repeat something ten times, try nine.
Small changes matter.
Every time you break OCD‘s rules, you teach your brain something new.
The Rule Is to Break the Rule
Recovery can sometimes feel playful.
Mischievous.
Like you’re refusing to let OCD be the boss anymore.
You start asking:
“What can I do today that makes me just a little uncomfortable?”
“What would be one small act of courage?”
“What would be one way to break the pattern?”
Those moments add up.
You Are Learning to Run Your Own Race
At the end of the day, recovery isn’t about never having intrusive thoughts again.
It’s about learning to keep living your life even when OCD is loud; living according to your values, not fear.
It’s about refusing to hand your attention over every time fear shows up.
It’s about becoming willing to feel uncertainty and move forward anyway.
And eventually, something beautiful can happen.
The thought comes.
The feeling comes.
The image comes.
And instead of getting pulled into the fight, it simply floats by.
You notice it.
And then you return to your life.
Recovery Is Possible
If you’ve been playing defense for years, I want you to hear this:
People get better.
People recover.
People build lives that are no longer controlled by OCD.
You don’t have to believe that fully today.
You only need enough hope to take one small step.
Then another.
And another.
Because every time you choose courage over compulsions, every time you break one of OCD’s rules, every time you move toward uncertainty instead of away from it, you’re changing the game.
And little by little, you’re learning something incredibly important:
You are stronger than OCD ever wanted you to know.
Transcription: OCD Has a Strategy. Here’s How to Beat It (with Reid Wilson)
Kimberley: You’ve been trying to quiet your OCD brain for a very long time. You’ve tried to push the thoughts away. Maybe you’ve argued with them. You’ve analyzed them, reassured yourself out of them. Maybe you’ve distracted yourself. You’ve waited for them to pass, and sometimes it works for a little while, but then OCD comes back with a new thought, a new fear, a new story that feels more urgent and more convincing than the last one.
And here is the thing that nobody told you. Every single strategy you’ve been using to quiet your OCD brain, OCD specifically designed those strategies. Not you, your OCD, because OCD wants you to keep playing defense, and as long as you are doing that, OCD is winning. Now, this is not because you are weak.
It’s because you’ve been playing the wrong game, and today, that changes. Reid Wilson is a PhD psychologist and one of the most respected OCD clinicians in the world, and what he is going to share with us today is going to flip everything you thought you knew about how to beat this thing. Because the goal isn’t fewer obsessions, the goal is learning to run your own race, even when OCD is loud, especially when OCD is loud.
Welcome, Reid.
Reid: Thank you, Kimberly. Good to see you.
Kimberley: Yes, again. You are one of our return visitors. I’m so happy to have you here with me today. Reid, before we get into your framework, I wanna really dive into the cost of playing defense. You talk a lot about that in a lot of your writing. I think a lot of folks have been playing into this cycle for a very, very long time.
They’re, you know, spending a lot of time playing in the defense. What does living in defense actually do to a person over time? Like, what does OCD take from people if they don’t learn to play offense?
Reid: Well, to start with, you’re using the right terminil- terminology when you use the word play, right? So let’s just back up and think about not that this is a game, of course, ’cause OCD’s quite serious and quite debilitating, but what we wanna do is create a, a frame of reference that provides me a strategy to start playing the game in such a way that I can win.
So that means creating a kind of conscious framework of it all. So if we, therefore, create this as a, a, you know, externalize OCD and personify it, it’s the challenger in this mental game. And again, it’s… We’re gonna set it up this way to give you a handle of how to approach this. When you back up, when you argue with the topic, when you try to correct things by doing a compulsive behavior, that lets the disorder be in control.
What it is looking for is to control your attention, and it controls your attention basically through fear, right? It says, “Watch out. This is happening, but the good news is I’ll tell you how to correct this.” And of course, this is just a continued loop where the disorder says, “Hey, just do this checking or have this positive image, and it will dissolve away.”
And of course, short-term, it works. That’s the other issue, you know, right? All you gotta do is this, and it’ll only take you this little amount of time, and then this’ll dissolve away, and you can get back to work or get back to interacting with your children or whatever you want to do. And so- We fall for this, and it is automatic.
It’s human nature really to respond to this kind of threat in this kind of way. I’m going to back up or I’m going to protect myself. But your question, I think, leads to this whole idea that when I am so engaged in this process, I’m missing all these other things. I only have a third of my mind available to hang out with my children.
I can’t concentrate enough to complete my exams, and, you know, on and on we could give examples of what happens. So that’s what we’re going after. We wanna break this down. We wanna tear this down. The thing I would just say is if you’re gonna create another structure in your mind about how to approach this, you have to blow up the current structure.
We have to be destructive. We have to take down the model that it has been delivered to us by the disorder. So that’s where we begin.
Kimberley: Yeah. And I think from what I see in my clients and in my students is similar to like an actual game, like an actual sport, when you’re constantly playing defense, you are exhausted.
Like, that is an exhausting game if you’re only in defense mode. Um, and yes, it takes a lot of energy to be in the offense, but what I think where people are is they’re sort of like exhausted from constantly being in defense and feeling hopeless about constantly being in defense.
Reid: Sure. And I think the other thing is the model I’ve been using with my OCD has been to some degree successful.
Kimberley: Yes.
Reid: And you’re now talking about, you know, trying to get me to do something that I’ve not experienced before. Okay, easy for you to say for me to do this. You’re not gonna end up living with the consequences if you’re wrong. So there’s this real terror around dropping my… You know, even if this has a lot of cost to it, there’s this terrifying idea that, yeah, but I don’t know what that’s going to do to me.
My fear is it’s going to provide this catastrophic outcome that I’ve been protecting myself or my loved ones from. So it takes, first off, a, a great deal of courage to do this. I think you and I know as, as specialists that we are trying to pr- sorry to say it this way, but trying to get ourselves to, as therapists- To be perceived as bigger than the disorder Mm.
Kimberley: Mm
Reid: Because it comes in as an authority Yeah And if we don’t come in stronger as authorities, then they’re gonna go, “Well, uh, you know, I don’t know.” Yeah Right? Or they’re going to do exposure practice timidly. Yes And as you’ve alluded to, this is an aggressive sport. Yes If you are going to be timid about your exposure, you are not going to win.
Yes You can talk to any specialist in the world in OCD and ask them, “Can a timid strategy work?” And 100% of them will say, “No.” So- Yes … we gotta team up- Yes … all of us, to be understanding what the playing field is, that is the pseudo playing field, and what’s another way to be perceiving and, and acting in the world.
Kimberley: Yes.
Reid: Don’t get me wound up, uh, in a way
Kimberley: No … I mean. I’m actually laughing because, um, I’ve been recently talking with some … I’m Australian, many of my friends are American, and some of my American friends as- have brought to my attention the New Zealander footballers who do the haka at the beginning of their game.
Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is a cultural dance that they do, but they are yelling and they are s- their eyes are big and their tongue is out, and they’re saying, “Why are they doing this?” Like, it’s a football game. But it’s a cultural way of, of showing we will not back down. You will not intimidate us. Like, we are here to show up and play the game, and it’s so effective.
Like, it is pretty scary to watch And we have to be, uh, l- like that in recovery if we’re going to win. We have to play the offensive.
Reid: Yeah, absolutely right. But there’s… That comes a little later than what we first have to do because in the beginning, we can’t be like, “Well, I’ve got you. I, I’m bigger than you are.
Come on.” Right? Yeah. Because we’re unsure. We’re nervous. We’re needing confidence, and we don’t have confidence. So, so we have to begin the process by stepping forward with a sense of uncertainty, with a sense of doubt, with a sense of, of threat, and do it anyway until we gather knowledge based on our experience.
This is working. Then we gotta lock that down to go, “This is the approach I wanna take,” or, you know, “I’m building this approach,” or, “I can take this approach around this issue i- in my OCD,” and then we can step up and be stronger. So we really gotta get to the place where we can be as strong as that. Yeah. I love the, the analogy.
Kimberley: Absolutely, yeah. So you frame OCD not as a part of someone’s identity, but as more of an external challenger, maybe like a, a fake referee or a pickpocket, and that framing is different to how most people experience it. They often feel it as that OCD is them, like the thoughts are coming from who they are.
Why is that distinction so important, and why is that such an important part of, you know, shifting the view?
Reid: First off, this is, this is a mental health disorder. It’s real. It’s valid. It’s in there in the neurology and messing with us. We are trying to do is lay out a new neurological pathway that competes with the current pathway that exists.
You know, so many people say, “My brain tells me,” and as soon as they say that, I, I correct them therapeutically. Would it be okay if we started to call that the disorder- Or OCD tells me, or, or my obsession tells me, because there we are building this external sense. And why are we doing that is because we wanna get to the place of when this messaging comes up, I’m not attending to this message.
This is not me. We already call it an, an intrusive thought or feeling or image, and that’s what we wanna build. This does not belong in my brain, but it is in my brain. I need to strategically build mental process that moves it a- away from my brain. Because you and I know, and all of us who are specialists know, we are not trying to extinguish the obsession.
Obsessions are gonna come and go. We don’t wanna be focused on y- you know, doing the intervention and then going, “Is it still there? Do I…” You know, we’re not doing that. We don’t care. This is w- how we wanna build it. We don’t care what pops up in our mind that is obsessive. We don’t care about the frequency of it popping up.
We’re building our response to that. If you… That’s why I try to say it because some people have days where they’re just, they’re just pummeled with obsessions. They know what to do, they know how to respond to them, but as you were saying, they just become exhausted by it anyway. And we… Yes, you’re gonna have days like that, and, you know, that’s how it goes.
This is an attitude shift. It’s like, okay, when I have these days, I don’t wanna get so frustrated that I just surrender. Of course, it’s frustrating. We wanna catch that and go, “Uh, n-” you know. This… What is the game? It’s like w- one of the ways I have people think about it is, and they don’t, this is paradoxical, and so this is what’s so hard for people, it’s like, okay, good.
Oh, there it is again, right? If we’re treating the obsessions and the urges to do the compulsions moment by moment, exposure is, includes frequency of practice. If we say every time a, an, an obsession pops up, that’s an opportunity to increase my skills. I’m having a day where I’m get, getting pummeled by it.
I wanna perceive that as, you know, 55 opportunities to build my response to it, even though I’m exhausted by it. So that’s why we start to externalize it and kind of really lock it in, in place.
Kimberley: I love that you say, and I’d love for you to really go deeper into this, ’cause I’m pretending I’m the listener.
I’m constantly, uh, listening to my guests, and then I know what my guests’, um, listeners are gonna, uh, say, is teach me how to not care what OCD says. Like, what… I know you have like a six-part framework, but maybe you have additional components you wanna bring in here. Like, teach me moment by moment how to not care, or at least be in the practice of not caring about the intrusive thoughts that people have.
Reid: Well, we begin with that kind of metacognitive, the going up one level of abstraction to understand how does it maintain- Control of my mind. And it does it by instilling this understanding that this is terrible that it’s happening, and I need to get rid of it. We, we wanna comprehend that if that’s what it’s doing, ’cause in, in metacognitive therapy, this is really what we’re trying to do.
What’s the challenger’s move, and what is our countermove, right? So if the counter- i- if the challenger is going, “I want you to pay attention to this,” then my countermove is, “I’m not going to pay attention to this.” If it wants me to start planning out how to get rid of it, I want to not care whether it stays.
So you gotta really understand that kind of framework, which is paradoxical, and then moment by moment, you’re implementing that. It’s like, okay, you know, there’s my obsession. You wanna be able to, once you understand the, the whole structures, which is it can sound complex, but it’s not. It, it’s not very many moves that the disorder makes, and that’s to our advantage.
The disorder only has a few moves. Well, if that’s true and we can understand what is our countermove, then we can just do that over and over again. Part of the problem, and I think, sorry to say, some of the ways people teach around exposure and response prevention for OCD is focus on that topic, that, the content of your obsession, what I would call your theme, and let’s take that down.
Let’s pay attention to it, go over and over again, allow it to pop up, blah, blah, blah. You know, I’m saying blah, blah, blah to the, the gold standard of treatment, so who am I to say that? But the work I think we need to be doing is going up one level of abstraction. It has nothing to do with the topic
Kimberley: Now, as you know, I have a private practice. I have six amazing therapists in Calabasas, California. However, we do not take insurance. Now, if you are looking for insurance-covered OCD or BFRB treatment, I wanna let you know about NOCD. NOCD provides face-to-face live video sessions with specialized licensed OCD therapists.
Now, their therapists use exposure and response prevention. We know this is the gold standard for OCD, so you can be absolutely confirmed that you’re in the right place there, and they have a clinically proven app that helps you stay connected to your therapist and others who have OCD between sessions, so you’ll always feel supported.
Now, the cool thing is NOCD is available in all 50 US states and even internationally, and they accept most insurance plans, making it affordable and accessible. We love that. Now, if you think you might have OCD or you’re struggling to manage your symptoms, you can book a free call. Just click the link in the show notes at nocd.com.
I am honored to partner with NOCD. I want to remind you that recovery is possible. Please do not forget that. Now, big hugs, and let’s get back to the show
Reid: Because everybody knows that, you know, if you’ve… 55 years old, and you’ve had it since you were, you know, a teenager, you’ve had five, six, seven different themes that have come up through your life.
So we don’t care about themes. What is the process? What is common denominator of those five different periods of having these obsessions? That’s what we’re going after, and that shrinks down what we have to be paying attention to. It, it restricts us. And so what you were asking b- before, it’s like, okay, what are the rules of the game?
If I can learn the rules of the game, then I’m there, and I’ll just, you know, play by those particular rules. When the National Basketball League, United States league, started playing European teams in Europe, it… The European game is a different structure. It’s got a few rules that are not the same as ours.
And so the NBA teams really had difficulty with those games until they got it together. You know, repeat is what coaches do anyway. You’re, you’re drilling, drilling, drilling until you know it by heart. Same thing that firefighters go through in training. Same thing that the military goes through. Same th- thing that police officers go through.
You learn the structure. When this happens, here’s how I respond. Mm. And you drill, drill, drill, and then once you have that, you’re playing the game. So I’m- Yeah … mixing, you know, some legitimately threatening and dangerous situations with this game, but it, it is how you do it. When you’ve got it and you can use it consistently, which is the most difficult part of all of this, in case you were going to ask me, is believing that what the disorder pops up is irrelevant to the treatment, that it is not a signal.
It is noise. If you don’t figure that part out, nothing else works. Mm. Nothing else works. This is why people struggle so much. It’s like, so y- the treatment is not exposure. The treatment is exposure with attitude. I, I know- Mm … what I need to be doing to be responding to this disorder, so I’m not gonna just follow my therapist’s instructions about how to do the practice.
I’m not gonna just do those exercises because I’ve been told to. I wanna absorb what they’re saying. I wanna metabolize The instructions. If I don’t understand them, I don’t wanna do them. So if I can- Mm … absorb that and understand what’s the function of this exposure practice, then I can metabolize that and start utilizing it.
Kimberley: Yeah. I once ha- I, I’ll, I’ll change all of the details here for privacy, but I, I did once have a client many, many years ago where I was giving assignments of, of exposure. I was telling them, like, “This is what you need to do,” and they were, “Yes, okay.” And they’d go and try and do it, and there was one day where they kept coming back, and they were like, “But there has to be, like, something else.
Like, there has to be something else.” And I was like, “Really, no. Like, you just have to do the work.” And I r- uh, I, of course I said it more eloquently than that, but it was like, “This is just something you have to do on repeat from here now. Like, just do it on repeat. Practice these skills of, like,” again, like that paradoxical do the opposite of, or to, with, like you said, do it with attitude.
And something clicked and they were like, “Oh, I get it. Like, this is an on-repeat activity.”
Reid: Yeah, but what you’re saying now- This is a- … that, that opening line, “Oh, I get it,” is exactly- Yes … what we’re looking for.
Kimberley: Yes. But it was, it was a contentious moment between us. Like, I always think for myself, too, you kind of have to get so sick of yourself and so sick of the playbook of OCD to be like, “Okay, I’m actually gonna do th- I’m actually going to,” like you said, “metabolize this and put it into play.”
So do you believe you have to have that aha moment or that moment where you’re so sick of yourself? Or can people … H- what can help people move into this faster?
Reid: Yes, in the end, as you just described, y- you need to have that aha moment. But what- Mm-hmm … we were saying before is you’ve gotta do some experiments before you really get it, you really think it’s gonna be helpful, you have to be more courageous and all that kind of stuff.
So I think the way you do it is experiments, and I think the part that we’re trying to play as, as therapists is, how do we construct a practice, an experiment that will modify something about the ritual or the routine in general that they would- tolerate. So what, what we’re up against is resistance.
That’s what we’re talking about, resistance. Why do I not wanna change? Well, I, uh, you know, whatever it is, it’s like I need to go work out today, but I just, no, I’m just not in the mood. I’m kind of tired. That’s that resistance, so you have to find a way to push through it. Part of what I talk about, I have a book called Quiet Your OCD Brain, and I just go through when this is coming up where I feel like the exposure in general is too big for me.
Oh, how do we start messing with the pattern? So for instance, one of the, the biggest things I tend to work with people about in the beginning is w- what I just call postponing. Kind of seems self-evident, but so here’s how it goes. Okay, the obsession says you need to do this compulsion, and what it gives you is a sense of urgency, immediacy.
You need to do this, and you need to do it now. That’s one of the ways you can start recognizing, is this an obsession or is this valid, right? All of a sudden it’s like, m- I gotta do it now, critically important, and if I don’t do it, this catastrophe will occur. So we wanna … In postponing it would be like, “Okay, I will do that compulsion, but I’m going to wait,” make up the number, “10 minutes before I do it.”
So part of what we are doing and do it a- a half hour or right before dinner or once I get home from work. If we, again, and this is a kind of manipulation that we’re trying to, trying to bring forward, which is, okay, I am going to throw the symptom cluster a bone. I’m gonna say, “Yes, I will.” I, I guarantee myself that at 4:00 I am going to do this compulsion.
I am not going, “Okay, my job is to never do this compulsion even though I have the urgency and the demand.” You’re gonna say, “No, I’m gonna do it. I’ll do it then and not now.” So I’m still gonna do it, but I’m modifying one aspect, which is time. If I agree to that, what I wanna do between that agreement and the time I’m going to act on it is I’m bringing my attention elsewhere.
I’m doing anything else. I’m not watching the clock and going, “Okay, God, it’s 2:30. I still have an hour and a half of, of these obsessions coming up. Oh my God, it’s going so slow. What do I do?” Blah, blah, blah. We, we’re gonna practice the skill of I’m hearing the obsession and I’m treating it as nothing because I’m guaranteeing myself that I will treat it as something later on if I need to.
That, if we can get that going, again, the length of time is irrelevant. It is that I put some, a little space in there because there, in, with OCD, there’s no space. Putting a little space of time in there, and then I’m practicing this skill. So it has a, depending on what the obsession is and the urgency is, for most of them, you can put a little wedge of time in and it won’t be as terribly threatening.
So, so those kind- You know, I go through all of it. If you do ev- you do your ritual with your left hand, we’ll switch it to your right hand. If you use a bar of soap, w- we’re gonna switch you to lotion or liquid soap. We’re, you know, if I, y- you just go series of things to do. If I have to do it when I’m standing up, let me see if I can do it sitting.
There’s so many manipulations that we can do to just start messing with the pattern, and we’re beginning neurologically to let the brain know that this is not required right now. And we do it enough So we, that opens up, you know, neurologically it’s like, okay, you know, I, I can do a delay tactic. The other, the last thing I would say just about this exercise is that occasionally, because OCD is so impulsive, it’s gotta happen right now, occasionally when I put this wedge of time in and get engaged in other things, when that time to do the compulsion comes up, the urgency is dissolved away.
Yes. Yeah. And I go, “What? Wow, that’s…” You know, it’s really about like anticipatory anxiety. We’re trying to teach people anticipatory anxiety is not predictive of outcome, right?
Kimberley: Yeah.
Reid: So when that dissolves away, now we’ve done a practice that was relatively safe, but there’s that aha moment. We’re going, “Huh, well, what do you know?”
So when that anticipatory dread and fear pops up in my mind, I don’t necessarily have to buy into it.
Kimberley: Yeah. So I love the language you’re using here, and you use in your book the idea of misbehaving or getting into, like, good trouble, right? To do the, like you’re talking about, the opposite of what OCD demands.
Can you tell us a little more about that language that you talk about?
Reid: Well, again, this is an aggressive sport. Again, the disorder has rules that we’re already following. If I keep trying to make changes but follow those rules, I, I’m gonna just be going in circles, right? And so misbehaving as that is my, my job is to break the rules.
Now, very often when I break the rules, I’m gonna get, I’ll use this term loosely, punished by the disorder. All of a sudden, three n- you know, new thoughts pop up in my head that are fearful when I make some kind of change. We have to break the rule, and we make it our rule. I was just, just got an email from somebody who’s doing practices around, uh, driving and not running somebody over or whatever.
And so we’ve got him having, h- so he only drives with his parent in the car. And so we’ve been working with the idea of having, I want parents to put a blindfold on. He, he would just have them close their eyes, right? And so he, he, we’ve exchanged a few times because I haven’t seen him face to face in a, a while.
And, and he was going like, “Oh, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m back from vacation, and now I’m working again around my parents and driving, uh, with them closing their eyes.” And I wrote back and said, “Just don’t forget that every day when you practice, try to make it a little more difficult.” than the day before. Mm-hmm.
That you have to keep mo- you know, what the position I want them to be asking themselves is, “What can I do today that will make me a little m- uncomfortable or uncertain about my theme?” And then, you know, in terms of how you do the practice, that’s the practice.
Kimberley: Right. Absolutely. And I love the language of, like, misbehaving.
It’s a little mischievous, right? Like, we’re getting into good trouble or we’re… You know, ’cause you said we will get in trouble by OCD.
Reid: Yeah. The, and the r- And, and it’s something that- Yeah. The
Kimberley: r- I’m just saying … we can make that
Reid: fun … the, the rule is to break the rule.
Kimberley: Yes.
Reid: That’s, that’s what you adopt. Yeah.
Kimberley: Right. So last question. For somebody who’s been playing defense for years, they’re exhausted, right? They are tired. They feel like nothing is working, or that they’re just giving up hope. What do you want them to understand, and what do you believe is possible for them?
Reid: Well, we know people get better. We know it, so it is possible.
You know, you’re a people, therefore logically you should also have the possibility of getting better. We do… This is what we do every day and have been doing for a long time. And I’m not, not saying, “Oh, we’ve figured everything out, and all the ways that we have people intervene in their disorder will be successful for them particularly.”
We don’t kn- know that. But what we do know is that you step forward into uncertainty and distress, and that whatever model you use to do that, we know that that is the right move. And if we talk to anybody who is stronger now, they will tell you that. And the other thing that they will tell you is, you know, we talk about mindfulness a lot.
And so, you know, the end game is, is to be mindful. I don’t quite go that way in the beginning, but in the end, that’s what we wanna do, is we wanna get to a place where that thought comes in and, you know, that emotion comes in, or that image comes in, and it come- floats in and just floats. You know, we’re just a conduit and it just floats on and moves on to wherever it goes next.
We don’t care about that. To back up to say the, the model that I’m using, because we’re talking about a- aggressiveness and, and a, a mindful approach, 100% mindful approach isn’t like an aggressive, it’s more neutral. We’re looking to get to neutral. Yeah. People do get to neutral, and it’s possible. I guess that is, you know, simply put, we can get there to neutral, and there are a number of paths you could take.
Th- if you resonate to one, you wanna be thinking about taking that path. And if you go, you know, whatever distance and that’s like, “Wow, this is… I’m not getting there,” then you can look around for another path. There are some consistence guidelines I think we should be taking, but you gotta look around for pa- a path that resonates with you.
Kimberley: I love everything that you’re saying here, Reid, and I’d love for people to know where they can learn more about your new book, and any other books that you wanna share, or resources. Tell us about where people can learn more about you.
Reid: Well, the best, the best way is just to go on my website, which is called anxieties.com.
It’s been around 28 years. It’s basically a self-help site, free, so you can get on the site and work on OCD or work on panic disorder or work on social anxiety, whatever you want. When, if you get on that index page, that opening page of an- anxiet- and so it’s plural, A-N-X-I-E-T-I-E-S uh, .com. And if you get there and you linger on that opening page for about eight or 10 seconds, you’ll get a pop-up that says, “What are you trying to work on?”
And just let me know and I will send you a PDF of all the resources I have throughout this website, and I’ve got, like, 45 YouTube clips and so forth. So r- r- if you fill that out, then you’re gonna get that m- uh, answer, and that’s the easiest way, ’cause the website is huge and you’re not gonna realize all the resources available, but this PDF will, will get you there.
Kimberley: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here- Yeah … and talking about this. It’s so exciting, and congratulations on your new book.
Reid: Thank you. Thank you.
Kimberley: I know you have a l- put a lot of work into that book.
Reid: Yep, yeah. Started 40 years ago, so.
Kimberley: It’s amazing.
Reid: So.
Kimberley: Yes, yes. Well, thank you again.
Reid: Good to see you.
Kimberley: Please note that this podcast or any other resources from cbtschool.com should not replace professional mental healthcare. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day, and thank you for supporting cbtschool.com.
