How to make Exposures FUN(ish) with Kimberly Leonte | Ep. 472
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In this episode, I’m joined by OCD therapist and researcher Kimberly Glazier Leonte to explore how you can make ERP more playful—without watering down the gold-standard principles that make it effective.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
- Why adding “fun-ish” elements can boost follow-through with exposures (especially between sessions)
- The surprising behavioral science story that explains why playfulness supports real change
- Creative ways to turn exposures into games—without turning them into avoidance or compulsions
- How singing, stories, Mad Libs, and humor can help you practice response prevention in a fresh way
- The key difference between “fun that helps” vs. “fun that distracts” (and how to tell which one you’re doing)
- Practical prompts to help you design exposures around your values, interests, and personality
How to Make ERP “Fun-ish” (Yes, Really)
There’s something I’ve been missing lately—slowing down long enough to check in with you.
So before we dive in, let me ask:
How are you really doing right now?
Are you holding tension somewhere in your body?
Have you been kind to yourself today?
I hope so. And if not, you’re still welcome here.
Today, I want to talk about something that might sound surprising at first: making Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) more fun—or at least, fun-ish. Not easy. Not painless. But lighter. More human. More doable.
And that difference matters more than you might think.
Content
ERP Is Hard… And That’s Exactly Why This Conversation Matters
ERP is the gold-standard treatment for OCD. It’s also challenging. We ask people to face the very fears their nervous system is screaming at them to avoid. That’s no small thing.
Lately, I’ve seen ERP described online as harsh, punishing, or even cruel. I want to be very clear: ERP itself is not the problem. When ERP feels abusive, it’s usually because of how it’s being delivered.
When ERP is collaborative, values-based, compassionate—and yes, sometimes playful—it can be life-changing. I know this personally. ERP didn’t just help me. It saved my life.
And one of the reasons it worked?
Because it wasn’t joyless.
Why “Fun” Can Support Real Behavior Change
In a presentation I co-led with OCD therapist and researcher Kimberly Glazier Leonte, we talked about a fascinating behavioral experiment often referred to as The Fun Theory.
In one study, a subway staircase was redesigned to look like a piano. Each step played a musical note. The result? A 66% increase in people choosing the stairs over the escalator.
Nothing about the staircase became easier. It just became more engaging.
And that’s the point.
When something feels lighter or more playful, we’re more likely to show up—and keep showing up.
What “Fun-ish” ERP Is (And What It Is Not)
Let’s be very clear about this.
Making ERP fun does not mean:
- Avoiding anxiety
- Distracting yourself to make fear disappear
- Turning ERP into a compulsion
- Neutralizing fear with positivity
ERP still requires discomfort. It still asks you to practice uncertainty. The goal is not to remove anxiety—but to change how you relate to it.
Fun-ish ERP simply makes it easier to approach the work instead of dreading it.
Turning Exposures Into Games (Without Losing the Point)
One of my favorite ways to add playfulness to ERP is through simple games.
Skill: Pair Exposures With Playful Structure
- Tossing a ball into a basket and doing an exposure if you miss
- Playing Battleship where “sinking” triggers an exposure
- Creating small competitions where either outcome leads to practice
The exposure still happens. The anxiety still shows up.
But the tone shifts from punishment to participation.
Let Your Interests Lead the Way
ERP works best when it aligns with your values—not when it bulldozes them.
If you love:
- Cooking → practice flexibility with measurements or order
- Music → sing intrusive thoughts to familiar tunes
- Writing → turn feared scenarios into exaggerated stories
- Art → write feared words on rocks, paper, or sand
Your interests don’t disqualify you from ERP. They can become part of it.
Singing Your Fears (Yes, I’m Serious)
One of the most effective response-prevention tools I use—personally and professionally—is singing intrusive thoughts.
Why does this work?
- It reduces mental arguing
- It interrupts rumination
- It keeps you in contact with uncertainty
Singing doesn’t remove the fear.
It changes your relationship to it.
If you can sing a fear, you’re practicing not taking it literally—and that’s ERP in action.
Making Response Prevention More Creative
ERP isn’t just about exposures. Response prevention matters just as much.
Some playful RP strategies include:
- Writing intrusive thoughts into Mad Libs
- Creating silly or dramatic short stories using feared themes
- Reading fears out loud in cartoon voices
- Writing fears and watching them wash away (sand, water, chalk)
These strategies still activate OCD—but without feeding the cycle of reassurance or avoidance.
Staying Grounded in ERP Principles
Here’s the most important part:
If something feels too easy, we pause and reassess.
We ask:
- Am I actually feeling uncertainty?
- Am I allowing discomfort?
- Or did this turn into a subtle avoidance or distraction?
Fun-ish ERP works because it stays rooted in the core principles:
- Willingness
- Uncertainty
- Non-engagement
- Compassion
If You’re Not Sure Where to Start, Ask This One Question
If you’re wondering how to apply this to your own recovery, I recommend starting here:
“What would make me more likely to show up consistently?”
Not perfectly.
Not fearlessly.
Just consistently.
That answer might involve music, humor, creativity, or movement. And that’s not weakness—it’s wisdom.
Joy Can Be an Exposure, Too
One final thought I’ll leave you with:
OCD often demands seriousness.
Rigidity.
Control.
Choosing joy, playfulness, and creativity can be an exposure all on its own.
You’re allowed to heal and smile.
You’re allowed to struggle and laugh.
And you’re allowed to find lightness—even while doing hard things.
That’s not doing ERP wrong.
That’s doing it human.
Transcription: How to make Exposures FUN(ish) with Kimberly Leonte
Kimberley Quinlan: Hello, my loves. It has been a while since I’ve sat down and recorded a more traditional chat audio with you. I’ve been doing my best here on the podcast to just dive into the information, dive in, give you as much high quality evidence-based skills as I can. But I’ve really missed just checking in on you and saying, how are you doing?
What’s going on? Is there any tension you’re holding in your body? Is, are you being kind to yourself? I hope so. I just wanted to check in. There has been so much happening over here, over at CBT School and in my private practice. We now, as many of you may know, we have a YouTube channel, which I am really putting so much time and effort into as well as the podcast.
I have recently launched a new course, which you may also have known about, called The Rumination Reset. This is a course that will help you to stop ruminating. It is all science-based. It is me teaching you the exact skills that I teach my client. This is a smaller course. It’s just a focused solution for a specific problem.
If you struggle with rumination, if you struggle with overthinking and catastrophizing and mental compulsion, please do go over to cbt score.com, or you can click the lyric link in the show notes and sign up for the rumination reset. It is my new favorite little. Baby course. In addition to that, I just wanted to let you know that we are pushing ahead with the content here.
In fact, where I am really considering doubling down and doubling the content I put out and really pushing to make sure you get access to actual skills that actually help. The more I’m on social media, the more I see absolute craziness and horrible advice in. Very concerning, like quick fixes. And I am on a mission to help you suffer less, not suffer more with those types of skills and faulty strategies.
So that being said, let’s get over to the show. I hope you’re doing well. I am sending you every single ounce of my love, and I’ll talk to you soon. I find that. Treatment for OCD is so much more successful when we make it fun, but that’s really hard for people because we’re trying to introduce fun with something that is so, so hard.
Exposure and response prevention. The gold standard treatment for OCD, it’s not a walk in a park. It is a difficult treatment. So we are here with Kimberly Glacier Leone and we are going to talk about how to make. Exposure and response prevention, the treatment for OCD fun. But we also said fun ish because we have a realistic expectation on what is gonna look like.
So welcome, Kimberly.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here and to, to do this, um, chat with you in conversation about how to make ERP fun. Yes.
Kimberley Quinlan: This is our second time around GOAT guys because we actually presented this at the International OCD Foundation Conference, and it was so well received.
Right after that. Kimberly texted me and she’s like, I think we really should do that on the podcast. I was like, one. Million percent. I really feel like, you know, everything we talk about here on CBT School is about making it compassionate, about making it accessible, but I don’t really talk about the fact that it can be really fun.
It actually can be really fun now. What I wanna sort of disclose at the front here is I have been reading more and more people talking about ERP as if it’s like a punishing type of treatment, as if it’s a like a mean treatment or an abusive type of treatment. And I could not disagree with that more.
And I think that’s actually more to do with. The way in which it’s implemented because I have found as, and I’m sure you have two of, we’re gonna talk about like, number one, to get appropriate, good treatment is literally the biggest gift in the world I’ve been given. ERP, it changed my life. Saved my life was so helpful.
Um, but also to have a therapist who was called to giggle and called to make really, really terrible conversations. Put some light on it. So I’m really grateful you are here. Um, Kimberly, first of all, tell us just quickly about you.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Sure. So I’m an an OCD therapist and researcher and, um, previously worked at McLean Hospital in their OCD residential program that kind of got me into the OCD world back in 2007.
And yeah, my, my passion is, is working with people with OCD perfectionism, um, ERP, compassion based, um. Focuses and just really helping people change how they’re relating to, to their really, you know, the, the thoughts, the behaviors, the patterns that are making life really hard and learning how to relate to it differently and see that kind of, that freedom that can come with not getting sucked into the, the exposures for not beating yourself up from it.
And also, like we’re talking about this talk, being able to like be playful and being able to, to have fun in the process too. It’s just so powerful. So I’m so excited to, to be here. I have my own group therapy practice, Clearview Horizons, and also my online platform, break the Cycle with Kim, which has self-help OCD resources.
So thank you so much for having me.
Kimberley Quinlan: Oh, I’m so thrilled. So when we did this presentation, you actually had this really cool little piece of research at the front end. I wondered if you would share that with us, because I feel like it sets the foundation beautifully.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yes, yes. So it’s really interesting. So Volkswagen kind of unexpected.
The car company had some behavioral experiment studies that they did and one of them and is looking at behavior change. And so what they were trying to see is could adding fun, they call it the fun theory, could adding fun, kind of really help people make behavior change that helps ’em for, for the better or help society for the better in in a situation.
One of the ones that we talked about in our presentation was looking at in the subway system, and so what they did was they had a staircase that was directly next to an escalator and they have video footage of kind of showing how much the staircase is or the staircase is used versus the escalator, and it’s like most people are taking that escalator up.
Then what they did is they changed the, the staircase. So instead of just being a standard staircase, they made it look like a piano. Like the, the keys on their piano. So they had it like the, the white keys, the black parts on the keys. They made it so that when you step on it, like music plays and they have that video footage of after this kind of change happen, how many people now are taking the stairs?
’cause it’s fun, right? It looks fun, it’s playful, it has music. You see people kind of going like up and down, making the notes, dancing around. And they had said that like 66% increase of people now taking the stairs over the escalator just by making the stairs fun. So it’s, while it’s looking at not kind of like an OCD um, study, it’s the same underlying kind of principles, right?
Of if we can kind of make things more fun, more playful, like. How does that help us want to make changes, right? How does that help people want to do things differently that then will help them whatever their goals might be. OCD, non OCD. So that was kind of a, the cool study that we spoke about in that presentation that kind of laid the groundwork.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. I love it. I love it. So I think that what’s so beautiful about that, I get goosebumps every time and, and we will leave a link to that video. ’cause in the presentation you actually shared the video of it and it’s so fun to watch people like, like curiously stepping on one step and being so, so excited about the step making a noise.
I think that the beauty of exposure is we see on. The internet or we, how we hear about it is people, you know, facing 10 out of 10 anxiety fears and it being so terribly painful. And I have to admit, and I’ve even had people say, I dunno how you do what you do. Like, isn’t that just so hard to like, for like, they use this term like force people to do these things and I’m like, literally never once, like, never once have I felt that way.
And if I even get an inkling of that, I back up and I think about how can we make this more playful? And the amount of times where you can find a way to have someone face their fear, but in a fun ish way that’s in line with their values. It’s amazing. Right? It’s, it’s so cool. So tell me, let’s sort of go through what are some ways that people can make.
Their fear or facing their fear. Fun. And maybe we’ll do some together ’cause I know we did in our presentation.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. And I think one of the things that we spoke about too is kind of looking at when we’re making something fun or not taking away from the ERP principles. Yeah. So it’s not that we’re like, oh, we’re just gonna have lots of fun and kind of like do something, but not really do it.
And like the goal to not really feel that anxiety. Right? That’s, that’s not true at all. Right? We’re trying to make it like a lighter, more playful add. So I’m like, oh, like I’m not, I kind of am more open to doing this, or I’m not like. As like, ugh. Right. And so it’s really trying to help clients be able to get a little bit more excitement about it versus like dreaming.
And it’s okay if people dread, right, because that that’s all part of, of that process. But if we add a little bit more lightness and playfulness to it, it can really help change people being more open to trying or being more open to kind of following through outside of therapy. Yeah, because at crime, that’s one of the biggest things as far as kind of making games.
Is that follow through in between sessions?
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. That homework compliance.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: And it can be so hard because, you know, understandably, we’re kind of helping and, and wanting people to, to continue to work on facing the OCD right? Reducing, resisting those rituals and doing that. Therapy is hard, and doing it outside of therapy can be even harder.
And then doing it not just like once or twice, right? But we really want that consistency and that frequency. So yeah. So I found that like really trying to add that playful element again, but we’re not taking away from the actual exposure. ’cause people might be like, wait, but that’s supposed to be hard.
And yes, it’s, but you could also like both can coexist together.
Kimberley Quinlan: Now, as you know, I have a private practice. I have six amazing therapists in Calabasas, California. However, we do not take insurance now, if you are looking for insurance covered OCD or BFRB treatment, I wanna let you know about no cd. No CD provides face-to-face live video sessions with specialized.
Licensed OCD therapists. Now their therapists use exposure and response prevention. We know this is the gold standard for OCD, so you can be absolutely confirmed that you’re in the right place there. And they have a clinically proven app that helps you stay connected to your therapist and others who have OCD between sessions, so you’ll always feel supported.
Now the cool thing is OCD is available in all 50 US states. And even internationally, and they accept most insurance plans, making it affordable and accessible. We love that. Now, if you think you might have OCD or you’re struggling to manage your symptoms, you can book a free call. Just click the link in the show notes@nocd.com.
I am honored to partner with no cd. I want to remind you that recovery is possible. Please do not forget that now, big hugs, and let’s get back to the show.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. And so I think like as we’re talking about that and as we did in the presentation, like that’s a, a key kind of takeaway. ’cause if someone’s like, oh, we can make it fun and we don’t wanna lose the element of the ERP in that process.
Kimberley Quinlan: Mm-hmm.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: So one, one, kind of one that, that I like a lot, I’m kinda really, basketball used to be my life decades ago now, but I, I still enjoy it. And so I kind of find that it can be fun to, to come, come up with little games. So like, if it’s, if we’re working on something, it can be contamination, but it can be so many other things too.
’cause oftentimes like, oh, we’re thinking of like throwing an object into a trashcan. Right. Then that would be maybe contamination for some people with contamination. But you can do that same thing and trying to kind of take something and toss it in. And it can be non contamination related. Mm. Right. So maybe it’s like you’re, you’re taking a ball and tossing it in, or it can be a, a trash can, it can be a bucket.
It doesn’t matter what the. Actual bin is, and perhaps if you miss that toss, then you kind of do an exposure. Or if you miss that toss, then you’re saying, you know, like you’re triggering word out loud. So it’s kind of you’re adding in that fun, playful element of like doing something or trying to get that basket.
Or if you don’t like basketball. Kick a ball into a goal or whatever it might be, and we’re linking up some type of exposure to that. And that’s how be any theme. So it’s not just like a contamination thing.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. I remember once, um, well, many times, but specifically I, uh, with this example of. Playing battleships and you would have three strikes and if you got sunk, whoever got sunk, we would do an exposure.
Right? So if, if, if someone got sunk or if they didn’t get sunk, depending on the rules that we’d made. But also letting the client make the rules of the games, right? Because it gives them a sense of like, I have, I’m a part of the making of the game and I’m a making of the rules. And that was really. Fun because instead of it being like a, all right, here we go, we’re gonna do exposure.
It was like this buildup of the game focus. I’m thinking of when you said basketball, even like if you did have to throw something in trash, you would like pretend to basketball and slam dunk it into that trash.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kimberley Quinlan: So I love that idea and I think, I love that you’re saying like you’re into basketball.
That’s. How you would do it if it was your exposure. Let’s say I was into cross stitching. Maybe as I’m doing one of the cross stitches, I would be thinking of a thought that I, you know, maybe had some anxiety doing, like trying to intermingle it with the things that you value.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. Yeah. And it could be fun to make it like for clients who are more kind of like a little bit of like a competition feel to it.
Mm. Right. So you’re kind of adding in. Okay. Like who can, who can get like. Five baskets first. Yeah. Right. Like as a therapist, like you’re shooting it in and it’s like, okay, if the therapist gets it in, then we’re gonna do like this exposure. Yeah. Right. You get in first, we’re gonna do this one. But again, it’s never forced.
Yeah. So it’s like you’re kind of coming up with this plan and working on it together, but you’re adding in that playful of like, all right, who’s gonna, who’s gonna get the baskets first? And I was looking at like, how can we add in those types of things for, and not everything has to be like competition or basketball.
Right. Like you’re saying it can be really any, what everyone’s kind of interest and hobbies are. Yeah. Bringing that element into it Yeah. Can be a great way of just like adding that enjoyment to it.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yes. Yeah. I remember once having client many, many years ago, and uh, this client had a fear of vomit, which is a very common phobia and phobia, and.
She was moving up her hierarchy really well and it got to the, where we were doing exposures to the sounds of vomit. And she of course did not wanna do this. And I said to her, who would be like in your life, who would be the funniest person to do this with? Like, what would be the funniest? And, and you, I thought she’d say like a friend or her brother or something.
And she was like, it would be really hilarious to actually hear my dad. Make a vomit noise because she’s like, he’s so serious. And he’s like always so busy and he is at work and you know, he’s maybe a little more firm than mom. He’s more playful. She’s like, it would actually be hilarious to hear him. And so I was like, okay, let’s ask him, bring him in.
And of course, dad was like, whatever helps you to get better. But he was really uncomfortable and that made her laugh, right? Because he, he didn’t like to act. He felt uncomfortable doing it in front of me, but she thought that was classic, right? Hilarious stuff. So I think it’s also like. It doesn’t even have to be the action being fun.
It might be doing it with someone who makes it fun or it’s funny to hear it when somebody else does it. Or even clients I’ve had say their fear into one of those like sound machines that make it sound like Bugs Bunny or Doth Fader or something. So they’re saying their fear, but it’s, there’s a funny nature to it.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yes, yes. And then looking at kind of that piece of bringing back the exposure element. So like if someone’s doing, say we’re doing like a cooking thing, right? And maybe like the person like really enjoys cooking, um, but then we’re adding in the exposure element.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Right. So if it’s like, okay, we’re, we can measure things if it might be like perfectionism, we’re not measuring it, you know, kind of like going a little bit more loosey goosey with the measuring.
Or if it’s like, oh, let’s put this, let’s do steps out of order is contamination. Maybe we’ll put a measuring cup like on the floor, so whatever it is, right. To kind of like bring on the, the OCD for that person. But then we can kind of take, we can pause during it. So it’s not like the whole thing has to just be like the cooking.
It’s like, okay, let’s do this. Let’s kind of take a few moments now and like focus on what you just did. Yeah, focus on the fact that like, we didn’t go in the right order. Yeah. Really kind of taking that time to go into the exposure mindset and, and to also, you know, beforehand discussing, all right, what’s the goals as far as like the ritual prevention plan?
Yeah. Right. So like, what are the rituals that you might be doing if you were to do this now, and if we didn’t kind of follow the OCDs rules, what would the OCD want you to be doing? Or what might you kind of do to feel, you know, that relief and, okay, can we, what can we do to reduce that? Can we kind of completely not do it?
Or is that too much of a jump? And we wanna kind of start with reducing, um, kind of checking in on, all right, if we don’t do this one, we wanna make sure we’re not swapping to another one. So it’s really kind of holistically, we’re still staying in the same exposure framework in the principles, but we’re just adding in like, okay, we like cooking, let’s add this cooking in, or let’s put music on, you know, as we’re doing this that we enjoy doing, but then taking kind of those periods of time to then like just really focus on.
And be with that discomfort and really go into it is still like the essential part of Yeah, making exposure fun too.
Kimberley Quinlan: And I think maybe what we need to really, we didn’t talk about this or maybe we did, and I’ve just lost my memory on this one, but. I think it’s also important to make response prevention fun.
Yes. Right? Like yes. And I, we can, we kind of did, this could be an exposure or it could be response prevention. But I know we talked about, and I’ve done this on social media and I do it on podcast, is even singing your fear. As an exposure, but also as a form of response prevention instead of ruminating.
Right. So, yes. Yes. Yeah. How Tell, tell us a little bit about how you incorporate singing or that kind of thing into exposure and response prevention.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. And so as far as, it can be kind of just singing to kind of like any tune, right? Or it can be making up your, your own kind of lyrics to stuff. That one could be really fun.
Yes. That all singing and also kind of like writing stories. Right. So instead of just doing like imaginable exposure scripts, which can be a great kind of practice mm-hmm. It could also do exposures of like writing, just like triggering stories, like you incorporating the triggering aspects of the OCD, but making it into like a really fun play, like kind of like writing your own little novel or short story.
Yeah. And those can be. So much fun and they’re so funny as like when, when the client’s reading it ’cause they’re really using that creativity and writing again, stuff that typically would be like, whoa, I could carefully if I’m writing this. Yeah. There’s also that really kind of like funny, fun element to it that like.
Just, it’s fun in the session. It’s, it’s fun. And so that’s one way of kind of, not really the singing piece, but it’s a similar theme. Yeah. And then doing, I mean, I think now, ’cause I have a almost 3-year-old, I thinking like kid songs, nursery rhymes, like all the time. It’s like. And so it’s looking at like, those are the songs that come to my mind first.
Yeah. You know, taking like any of those and changing the lyrics to it. So instead of like, if you’re happy, you know, it, clap your hands. Right? It can be like if you are, and then insert whatever that theme is. Right.
Kimberley Quinlan: So give me an example.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. So it could be like, you know, if, if we’re going with like existential, right?
Like, if you have no control over your life at all, clap your hands. Right. So that could be one. It could be, you know, like from a, from a harm one, you could throw in like an adjective that would be, you know, kind of evoke the, the OCD from that, or like a sexual one or a religious one. Like it was really anything that could go into that.
Yeah. And just kind of bringing in that worry. And then you’re essentially saying that’s you. So it’s like you’re, you’re doing it again in that playful way. Um, but it just adds in another way of kind of doing the exposure, but with some like, kind of like fun and lightness. And then again, also taking that time after to just.
If you’re noticing when you’re doing it, whether you’re doing it on your own or you’re doing it like in a therapy and it’s, you’re finding it’s like too fun, right? It’s like it’s too easy. Then it’s kind of taking that pause and saying, okay, like that’s great that this was fun. And is it fun because like it’s no longer like you’ve been working on it and it’s no longer bothering you?
Or is this something that’s like actually hard and it’s just fun right now because like you’re not connecting with it from an exposure? Yeah. And if that’s happening, then we wanna talk. Okay. Like maybe we just drop the singing for a moment. Right and just kind of go into it differently. Or if we’re singing, maybe it’s like evoking more of that, like maybe a little bit like, um, the, a social kind of embarrassment piece.
And so it’s taking away from like the fair ’cause it’s like, oh, I’m so focused on me singing that, like I’m thinking. How do I sound? Are you judging me? And so it’s kind of like a different type of exposure. Yeah. But it’s making, it’s not connecting with the primary exposure. Yep. So we wanna kind of really be talking when doing this type of stuff.
Kimberley Quinlan: And I love what you’re saying because we’re talking about making it fun, but you’re bringing in the nuance of making sure it’s still an appropriate level of exposure. That we’re not just doing this as like a another compulsion to make the fear neutralize with positivity. Yeah. And we’re trying to really like squeeze the benefit of the exposure, but but in a way that is still still difficult, right?
Still not, we don’t, I mean, yes, it’s a good starter exposure, but they can also be good middle and hard exposures as well. But I think I hear that you’re, you’re constantly asking. How can we make sure this isn’t compulsive? How can we make sure this is pushing someone to a reasonable level and how are they still that foundation of, are we still practicing being uncertain?
Are we still willing to be uncomfortable? And all of those things. Correct?
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yes, yes, yes.
Kimberley Quinlan: Um, I, so I’ll give you an example, listeners, just because I know you have been hanging on this whole time to hear me sing. Like I, I wanna just sort of make sure you guys understand what that means.
So I use this all the time for myself. Let’s say I have, um, a fear that I am going to miss. This is my core theories. I’m gonna miss something simple and something catastrophic will happen and I will have to live with the consequences that it was my responsibility that I could have prevented it. Very hyper responsibility.
So if it’s anything that comes up, it could be Tuesday, it could be Thursday, it could be Tuesday morning, could be Tuesday night, doesn’t matter. You just adapt it to your fear. So let’s say your fear is, um, that you miss something. So I would sing it to the Happy Birthday song. So I go, I missed dropping him off.
He will die. I’ll never get to see my son again. Like it could be simple like that, like. High for responsibility that I have to like do this perfect goodbye to him every day. Or if it’s like, um, I said the wrong thing, I harmed my daughter. She’ll forever be traumatized and I’ll be a bad mom forever. Like it can be whatever your fear is.
Uh, so I Sorry about the singing guys. I know, but, um, I just wanted to demonstrate that because. You can literally replace any fear in there. And I had a, I actually, if you had to ask me to say that, I wouldn’t be smiling, but there’s something about singing it that feels so ridiculous that it feels doable, and I still get the benefit from it.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love, like you’re saying, it’s so great because it’s something, it can become like, not in a, a kind of a ritual way, but like you’re a goat too. Like it’s like this is happening. If you notice, you start to kind of fuse with it. It’s like, no, this is what you do. Yeah. And so it’s, yeah.
I love it. I love. Yes.
Kimberley Quinlan: So, um, one other thing that I like to do when you’re talking about stories is Mad Libs. Mm-hmm. Um, and just so anyone, literally, I’ve had therapists of my therapists who work for me here in my practice where they actually use AI to create. Very basic Mad Libs. Or you could just get the book from the bookstore.
You know, you can buy Bat Mad Libs, and then you just fill it in with your obsession content. So like, if it has to be an object, they might write knife. If it has to be an emotion, they might write terrified or guilty or uncertain. Um, if it says a place, they might pick the place where their obsession is, and they’re using that so that when you read it back, it’s an opportunity for an exposure.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah, yeah. Yes, I’m silly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah.
Kimberley Quinlan: What other ideas do you have?
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Um, I also like, I like, um, doing like obstacle course type of things. Um, or kind of like, I like making things into games, right? Because I feel like it’s so fun. And when you think about like, how kids learn best too.
Mm-hmm. Right? It’s like they really do so well with trying. It’s like, oh, like, like, oh, go brush your teeth. Like. I mean, one of the tone matters, right? But it’s also like if you can make things, not everything has to be a game, but like adding lightness into things and kind of bringing in like fun and humor, just with behavior change in general, it just can be so, so effective.
And so it’s looking at like, you know. A lot of times with it can show up with difficulty. Like, oh, it’s not fair, right? Or, this is, this is the order it’s supposed to be, or it’s like, okay, but this is what we’re supposed to do. So I’m like, now I, I don’t wanna, I can’t like switch to that, right? So if you have kind of like an obstacle course of like, all right, step one, like go do this, go do that.
And then at some point during it, it’s like, all right, actually let’s swap step two and four. Or let’s not do this and do that. So it’s kind of just having different ways again, like they’re, you’re actively doing something, but triggering that underlying process of like, oh, but this doesn’t feel right.
Yeah, right. Like, um, so I think kind of those type of things are another way that I kind of find bringing in fun or doing like a like type of like race type of thing, or just the walking, like putting something on your head. And it can, doesn’t have to be, again, only be contamination. ’cause a lot of times people can think of like, oh, something on the head that popped falls to the ground.
Yeah, that’s contamination. But it could be so many other things. Right? It could be looking at, maybe it’s like for religious OCD, putting something that, like the OCD is saying, you know, can’t touch the ground. But that, but the faith is not saying that. And so putting on your head and then trying to walk and like see how far you can go before it falls and touches the ground.
Yeah. Or can be doing like a race if you’re doing it in session, like you both have something on your head and you’re seeing kind of like who can get to the end quickest. Yeah, right. Like at all, play competition stuff. For me, the goal is it’s very playful. It’s just not serious. Like, I’m gonna beat you.
Are you gonna beat me? Is no, I’m gonna add in like just a fun little aspect.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. I think it adds an opportunity to be mindful too. Like when we’re just sitting and doing an exposure, let’s say we, let’s imagine two people, the therapist and the client sitting on a chair and they’re just doing this very simple exposure.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Yeah. But it’s hard to then. Zoom out and be in that sort of normal functioning life and practice real life skills. So I feel like in the game it gives you something to focus on. Not that you’re distracting, but practicing being mindful while you feel uncertain, while you feel anxious.
That’s the part of this I love. Like I once had a client where there was one specific word that was so triggering for her, and it was also like more of a post-traumatic OCD. So it was related to her an event that happened. And then her OCD just. Took over that one thing. So we would, she would write that word on pebbles in her front yard.
She had this massive yard of pebbles and they were like, I don’t know, couple of inches, maybe three inches. These rocks more like, um, Mexican river rocks or very flat stones it maybe would paint on, and so she would choppy the word and then just. Hide it down under there. So like not to like, she didn’t want her kids to pick it up or anything, but then every day she would go in and write the word and then put the the rock, turn it back down and put it there.
And it was like a symbol of her kind of giving OCD the bird. But she thought it was hilarious, like, I didn’t come up with this. She was like, Hey, we go. Thought. ’cause I think our kids were painting rocks, so she was like, I’m just gonna do this. And it’s so great to, to shift that playfulness.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. I love that.
That’s made me think too of like, if someone, you know is by, by the beach Right. And going and like writing in the sand, that could be a fun thing too, to kind of like go and, and Right. The war or in the sand, right. By the, either in the sand, but depending on what you’re writing. Right. We all would, it wouldn’t be barely keeping that in the sand.
Uh, it could be writing it by the water, right? If it’s not like that, you could actually keep writing it. And then you’re seeing kind of the, the waves kind of come in and take it away, but you’re still like rear writing it out there, but you’re adding in connecting to something that you enjoy or adding in that playful element to it.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Is there any other ideas? I mean, really what I’m, the message I wanna leave us on is, you can do this with anything. People have different senses of humor too, right? So, you know. This is still the irony of human beings. I have a son who hates guns but loves Nerf guns, like he’s dead against guns, but he will make a gun out of his toast if he was like.
Feel like stick ’em up, mom. Like do, do, do. But if you said something about guns out, he’d be like, oh my god, guns. And so I think it’s also sort of learning and everybody taking for themselves, like learning what is funny to them. Not that we are trying to make jokes of someone’s suffering, but. Asking people, what do you find funny?
What you know, would it for him, if I’d say, if he needed to do an exposure, he’d probably think it was hilarious to like, write words on a Nerf gun bullet and shoot it at the wall. Like that’s the, that where we can be creative. Do you have any, um, advice for people who are, as we finish up here, do you have any advice for people who are wondering how to implement this into their own exposures?
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yeah. So I think it’s looking at one, trying to kind of see what are things that you like to do? And I know that can be a slippery slope because sometimes people can also be like, Ooh, I don’t want to take something that I enjoy. And kind of like, you know, contaminate rib, something that, that is really scary.
Yeah. And so that’s a part of it. And that could be an exposure, right? Of let’s working up towards being able to do that. So taking in that enjoyment, if it’s a video game or if it’s turns songs or that you like or dancing or whatever it might be, and trying to bring that in. Yeah. So if that’s a piece, that’s a common piece that can happen and, and super understandable.
But again, we, to me that would be a great exposure to work towards because otherwise it’s essentially saying, well, this stuff’s off limits. I can’t kind of have these two be in existence with each other. Which just reinforcing the OCD. Yeah. But I think that. But if that piece isn’t showing up right, then it’s looking at, okay, what are things that you genuinely enjoy doing, right?
And how can you kind of. Integrate that into the exposure from this sense of going back to that Volkswagen kind of fun theory of this is hard stuff that, that you’re being asked to work on. Right. That, that you, um, want to, or, or know is helpful for you to work on or wants to, or believes would be helpful to work on.
Right. But life is, has, is busy. There’s a lot of things and it can be really hard to kind of take that extra time to do this. Especially when there’s all these other aspects of life, and so it’s looking at, okay, what would help me be more likely to do this? That’s kind of that guiding question that I would recommend people kind of ask and then be like, all right, this, this, this, or this, or like music or dance or making it into some type of challenge or cooking or.
You know, video game and, and how can you kind of add in an element that makes you a little bit more excited to like, do that exposure while sticking to that principle of we wanna do it. And we also wanna take time to really focus on like what you’re doing and work on that ritual prevention piece. Um, because that’s a huge piece of what exposure work is.
Kimberley Quinlan: Yep. Yep. Exactly. And alternating. Right? So having it be more of a formal exposure, then doing a fun one, right. Widening the context in which you can do an exposure is awesome. I was also just imagining, imagining someone doing a cheer, like if they’re having something like they were afraid of sinning, they’d be like, give me an S.
Yes, yes. Gimme it in.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Kimberley Quinlan: Um, I love this. Okay, so can you tell us where people, I know you shared at the beginning where people can get ahold of you more about you and the work that you’re doing.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Sure. Um, so my, my website for therapy is the Clearview Horizons, so cv horizons.com. And then for resources, it’s break the cycle.
Um, so it’s, let’s break the cycle.com and both of those places have, um, different resources. I actually have something specific to the. The, this topic of making exposures more fun. Uh, so that’s a, a guidebook that I have on this topic specifically. And yeah, I would love for you to, I also have a, a free OCD awareness scale, which people can download as well.
Kimberley Quinlan: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here and talking about, uh, it’s, it’s so joyful, right? To talk about. Finding ways to make, like life’s hard enough. Yeah. That it’s, you know, if we can in like, I think that, and I think that sometimes doing activities that are joyful is an exposure in and of itself. OCD wants you to be serious about the topic.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Yes,
yes.
Kimberley Quinlan: And thank you for bringing some joy into something that’s already hard.
Kimberly Glazier Leonte: Well, thank you so much for, for the presentation, um, on OCD SoCal and, and for having me on your podcast and to talk more about this topic.
Kimberley Quinlan: Amazing. Thank you.
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