Can You Recover from OCD WITHOUT Therapy? Let’s Talk Truth (with Nathan Peterson) | Ep. 447
What You Will Learn in This Episode:
- Can you recover from OCD without therapy? Kimberley and Nathan share their expert insights.
- The pros and cons of using self-help courses versus traditional therapy for OCD.
- Why understanding OCD and its mechanisms is key to overcoming it.
- Practical strategies for maintaining motivation and making consistent progress.
- The importance of support systems and accountability when navigating OCD recovery on your own.
- Research-backed evidence on the effectiveness of unguided self-help programs for OCD.
Can You Recover from OCD Without Therapy? Insights from Kimberley Quinlan and Nathan Peterson
OCD can feel overwhelming, especially when therapy feels inaccessible—whether due to cost, availability, or burnout. The question remains: is it possible to recover from OCD without professional therapy? Kimberley Quinlan and OCD specialist Nathan Peterson dive deep into this very question, offering hope, insights, and strategies to help you move forward in your recovery journey.
The Big Question: Can You Recover Without Therapy?
While therapy, especially for specialized conditions like OCD, is often viewed as the gold standard, Kimberley and Nathan agree that recovery is possible without it. However, they both emphasize that the journey requires a lot of motivation, discipline, and education.
Nathan, who creates online courses for OCD recovery, believes that individuals can recover on their own using the right tools and strategies. However, he also warns that it’s not a simple or quick fix. It takes consistent effort and the willingness to push through doubts and uncertainties—something OCD often exacerbates.
The Role of Online Courses in OCD Recovery
Both Kimberley and Nathan are strong proponents of using online courses for those who cannot access therapy. Kimberley created her own courses in response to clients who couldn’t afford therapy or find specialized help. She stresses that although therapy offers certain levels of support, courses can still provide powerful guidance.
Nathan explains that a self-help course can be an educational foundation, teaching the basics of exposure and response prevention (ERP), the gold standard for OCD treatment. These courses can teach you how to face your fears, build a hierarchy of exposures, and practice ERP on your own.
However, both agree that the self-paced nature of online courses requires immense self-motivation. Without a therapist there to provide real-time feedback and reassurance, it’s easy to feel lost or unsure about your progress. To counter this, they recommend finding support through family, friends, or online communities to provide encouragement and validation.
What Recovery from OCD Really Looks Like
Nathan and Kimberley both stress that recovery from OCD is not about eliminating intrusive thoughts completely. Instead, it’s about learning to live your life without being consumed by those thoughts. Nathan puts it this way: “Can you live the life that you want to live, even with OCD in the background?”
OCD may still try to creep in with occasional intrusive thoughts, but the goal is to minimize the impact these thoughts have on your daily functioning. Recovery means not letting OCD dictate your actions or cause you to engage in compulsions.
For Kimberley, recovery also means being able to recognize when you’re getting caught in compulsions and having the ability to break free quickly. This is not about perfection but about progress—reducing the power OCD has over you.
Is Therapy Necessary for OCD Recovery?
While both experts agree that therapy offers a high level of support, they acknowledge that it’s not always an option for everyone. Therapy can be expensive, and access to specialized OCD therapists can be difficult. Nathan points out that therapists who claim to treat OCD may not always be fully qualified in this area, which can lead to ineffective treatment.
Therefore, Nathan encourages individuals to seek specialized online courses or workbooks from licensed OCD experts. These resources offer clear, research-backed strategies for managing OCD, often filled with exercises and actionable steps.
Kimberley suggests that a combination of online courses and therapy could be highly effective, especially if you can find a general therapist willing to work alongside the tools you’re learning from the course.
Overcoming Setbacks and Staying Motivated
Both Kimberley and Nathan highlight the importance of perseverance and self-compassion in the recovery process. Setbacks are normal, whether you’re in therapy or using self-help resources. It’s important not to make impulsive decisions based on compulsive thoughts. If you’re struggling, don’t immediately assume that therapy is the only way forward. Instead, revisit your course or workbook and see if you can re-engage with the practices that helped you before.
Nathan also shares the importance of using setbacks as learning opportunities. Reflect on what has changed in your environment—such as increased stress or new triggers—and consider how you can address these factors moving forward.
The Power of Education and Support
A key takeaway from the discussion is the power of education. Understanding how OCD works, recognizing the “tricks” it plays on your mind, and learning effective coping strategies are crucial in recovery. As Kimberley explains, many people fail to recover because they haven’t fully grasped the science behind their condition.
Nathan’s courses focus heavily on education first, followed by practical exposure exercises and long-term maintenance strategies. His course is structured into three main parts:
- Education on OCD and treatment,
- Treatment where you learn to create and face exposures,
- Maintenance, which helps you maintain progress long-term.
This structured approach can empower individuals to take control of their recovery, even without direct therapy.
Research-Backed Support for Self-Help
Interestingly, research supports the effectiveness of unguided self-help programs for OCD. A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials found that self-help interventions showed a moderate reduction in OCD severity compared to control groups. This validates the potential of online courses and self-guided resources as part of the recovery process.
However, the same research also showed higher dropout rates in self-help programs, likely due to the challenge of staying motivated and confident without professional guidance. Nathan and Kimberley agree that motivation is key—whether through a course, workbook, or therapy.
The Bottom Line: You Can Recover from OCD Without Therapy
The final message from Nathan and Kimberley is one of hope and empowerment: recovery is possible, whether you have access to therapy or not. It requires commitment, self-compassion, and the right resources. Whether you choose a course, a workbook, or therapy, the important thing is to take that first step and trust that progress will come.
Remember: progress doesn’t look the same for everyone. Your recovery journey may involve setbacks, but with the right tools and mindset, you can regain control of your life.
If you’re ready to take the next step in your OCD recovery, consider exploring online resources, and be sure to connect with a support system to keep you motivated along the way.
Final Thoughts
Ultimately, the journey to recovery is deeply personal. What works for one person may not work for another. But by educating yourself about OCD, committing to the process, and seeking out support, you’re already on the right path. Keep moving forward—no matter how small the steps may seem.
The podcast is made possible by NOCD. NOCD offers effective, convenient therapy available in the US and outside the US. To find out more about NOCD, their therapy plans, and if they currently take your insurance, head over to https://learn.nocd.com/youranxietytoolkit
Transcription: Can You Recover from OCD WITHOUT Therapy? Let’s Talk Truth (with Nathan Peterson)
Kimberley: All right. You’re trying to recover, but therapy is too expensive. Maybe it’s unavailable for you, or you are just completely burned out. The question we are asking today is, can you really do this on your own? This is what we’re gonna talk about today. Welcome back to your anxiety toolkit. I’m Kimberly Quin.
Today I am joined by the brilliant Nathan Peterson. He is a licensed therapist, an OCD expert, and a creator of an incredible helpful tool for the OCD community Over on YouTube, we’re sitting down to answer some big questions today that you may have had. And the question is, can you recover from OCD without therapy?
So let’s explore this. We’re gonna be completely honest here. We’re gonna look at some research, um, and hopefully leave you feeling hopeful and able to make a decision on what’s best for you. So welcome back, Nathan.
Nathan: Thank you so much. I love, I love talking about anything, uh, OCD related. Um, and you know, more than just talking about it, it’s like, how, how can people like, do something to, to feel better, get better, yeah.
Just have some good resources.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. This, the reason I, I’m, so I wanted to do this with you today, is you have online courses, right? Um, as everyone knows I do too. I also have a private practice, right? So, and as you do too, and often people ask, which should I use? Which one do I require? Um, it’s a very personal decision.
Um, but I sort of wanted to use today to go through the pros and cons of both. Explore a little bit about who would benefit from therapy, who would benefit from courses, um, so that they can make an informed decision on their own.
Nathan: Yeah, it’s, it’s such a tricky thing because obviously it, when somebody is struggling with OCD, they’re, they’re researching like, what are the tools?
How can I get better? What’s the treatment? And most of the time people fall on finding a therapist. Um, and as you know, therapists are, are actually kind of tough to come by for OCD specific.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: Um, you can go on some of these websites and there’ll be hundreds of people that have OCD listed as something they treat, but that’s not always accurate.
No, and, and I think that’s why, for me, creating my course was something I wanted to do is like, if there is not enough help out there, not everyone has access to a therapist, this is something that hopefully could benefit just. Have people gain some knowledge on like what the treatment actually is. Um.
Because when you research online, it’s pretty general. It’s like go face your fear, fears, and it’s like, so what does that mean though?
Kimberley: Yeah, well, it’s not only that, it’s also if you search the internet, you might be drinking celery juice, you might be, you know, tapping your head and rubbing your belly. And then there’s all different kinds of solutions out there.
And some have worked for some people, but, um, there’s a lot of misinformation as well, so, absolutely. Okay. So. Somebody, let’s say the main reason I created courses was because I was having to turn people away who could not afford it. I mean, the other real important piece here is it’s not only just that you can’t find a therapist, it’s dang expensive.
Right? Yeah. So expensive. Um, and right now, especially some people don’t have that money. Um, and so often the first question or email that I get is like, can I actually, is this gonna be enough? Like, can I actually do this? Which again, is why I wanted to discuss this with you. Um, so I wanna sort of get straight to the good part.
Like, do you believe you can actually recover from OCD without a therapist? I.
Nathan: Man, tough question. The, the hard part about this is that I think everyone sees recovery differently.
Kimberley: Yes.
Nathan: For most people, they might think recovery means that I’m not having any intrusive thoughts ever again, and I’m just living my life.
And it’s just, it’s just amazing. It’s gone. Um. I think if someone’s going in in with that mindset, they’re gonna be a little disappointed. Even seeing a therapist and going in with that mindset. Um, it, it’s interesting ’cause I, I’ve had people reach out who say, you know, I have recovered by taking your course, but I’m like, well, what does that mean?
Um. Are things just a little bit better? Did you do the tools that are shown on there? Um, unfortunately with, with a course, it’s like this is educational based. This is not therapy. And so you can take what, what we provided, um. You know, I haven’t seen your specific course, but you know, for me it’s like I’m taking someone through their first session all the way to the last session as if I were to see them in my office.
This is what I teach. Here’s the worksheets. If you wanted to create a hierarchy, this is what you can do. Um, I think what the hard part is sometimes just finding motivation to do it and feeling confident because you’re doing it all on your own. Um. So I guess ultimately to answer your question, I think people can.
I guess we could say recover using an online course, but it takes a lot of effort to say, I am trusting in myself. I’m not sure if this is the exposure I’m supposed to be doing, but I’m just going for it and, um, taking some time out of my life to make it happen every single day.
Kimberley: Yeah, yeah. I have the same, I have the same answer.
So if I, someone were to ask me, I would say, someone said, can I recover without. Therapy. Can I do this with a course? I would say absolutely. And then I would say, and as you did, which is just reinforcing what you said, is um. There are certain support levels of support that come with therapy that you would need to put in place if you’re doing this on your own.
Um, like you said, a lot of, um, commitment, a lot of, um, discipline, um, would be one. Another is another is just support, like feeling validated, feeling encouraged, like cheering them on. You’ve got this, like, that’s such a big part of therapy. It’s like you’ve got this, you can do it kind of thing. So you would need to have that.
Um, I, my course is set out the same and we’ll talk a little bit more like that, like exactly how I would show a client. And that’s the thing I would say here is OCD will convince, try to convince you that your OCD is that special type of OCD that can’t. Be treated even in therapy. It’s got a way of making you doubt your abilities to overcome it.
Um, and I would say no matter which route you go, whether you’re taking an online course or you’re seeing a therapist, or you’re going into IOP or residential, OCD is still gonna want to try to. Place doubt and your work is to get really good at just being able to be uncertain and move forward, and that will be the case no matter what level of care you’re at.
Nathan: Yes, it it’s one of those things that you have to think about for, for yourself. Is this something that I am. Willing to do and find these other resources, whether it’s a family member or a parent or a spouse that is gonna support me through this thing. Um, and understand some of the, you know, I guess I call ’em OCD lies that, that pop up of, you know, I can’t do this because my OCD is different, or they didn’t explain it the way that I’m going through it.
Um. It’s sometimes taking these, these doubts and these questions and just saying, I don’t know, but I’m going for it anyway. Yeah. And which is so, so hard when you don’t have someone right in front of you saying Do this and do this, and do this and do this. Um, I know we try our best, you know, through videos and things like that, but it can be a tough process, but people do it.
And I think that’s the cool part.
Kimberley: And so just, just to get ahead of that, and, and this is a question I was gonna ask you before, but I guess we’ll ask it now, is like, people reach out to you and tell you that they did recover from your course.
Nathan: Yeah,
Kimberley: yeah,
Nathan: yeah. And, and I. You know, I don’t, I, maybe it’d be good to do, but I don’t follow up and be like, whoa, what did you do?
How did you do it? What was your structure? Um, ’cause I kinda wanted to, you know, keep their privacy and
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: You know, things like that. But people, people do it. I think sometimes even just having the knowledge of like, oh wait, this is OCD, what, what I’m experiencing, and just feeling validated by. Knowing that people can get better.
People learn the skills and here’s a way to do it if you want to do it.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s very similar to me. It’s always wonderful to hear someone say, I really just needed to understand the, the way in which OCD was tricking me. The cycle it had me in, and once I got that, then I could wrap my head around how to sort of reverse engineer the process of OCD.
Now what I, I mean, I could, we could tell lots of stories there, but of course we don’t wanna tell other people’s. Personal stories. One thing I wanna touch on here for the listeners is if you’re someone who is struggling, I don’t want you to feel like there’s something wrong with you that you didn’t get to that, and I love that.
Before you talked about really that definition of recovery, so just for everybody to be clear, what do you consider recovery for OCD to look like?
Nathan: For me, I look at OCD and I say. Can you live the life that you want to live? So, am I going out, even if I’m having an intrusive thought about something, can I go live my life?
Can I go to a movie? Can I go hang out with my family? Um, have my kids sitting on my lap? Like the things that I want to do, can I do? And what I typically see is that the intrusive thoughts and the nagging and all that start slowing down. Yeah. Over time, um, for some people they say, Hey, I don’t have really very many thoughts.
Other people say, I still have thoughts, but they just don’t bother me.
Kimberley: Yep.
Nathan: So I think there’s so many different maybe, categories of what recovery is. And you know, for me it’s like if you’re living your life exactly how you wanna live it, and you’re not finding yourself doing compulsions, to me that’s, that’s recovery.
Um. And you’re maintaining, hopefully maintaining the progress that you’ve made through that. And I know some people who are in like the throes of OCD hear that and they’re like, well, I am stuck in this forever. But that’s not really what it is. Like you. You can have something that is you’re struggling with, but it, it is so minimal that it doesn’t really matter.
It’s just a thing every once in a while that’s popping up that maybe bothers you. It’s a thought that’s like, why is this back? Like, I haven’t had this in a while. Um, you know, ultimately it’s like you’re, you’re feeling joy, you’re feeling happiness in the things that you’re doing, and I’m not thinking about OCD.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah, and, and I think I agree with everything there. Like I don’t think that recco, I’ll tell you what I think recovery is not like, recovery is not. No anxiety. It’s not the complete absence of intrusive thoughts ’cause we all have them. Um, you know, even, I would even go as far as like some of, some of my clients even have said like, I consider myself in full recovery.
I sometimes do get tricked into OCD compulsions. I’m able to pull myself out of them pretty quickly. They don’t like take my day or take my hour like they used to. Um, and so that’s sort of how I would, similar to you, I would define recovery. So then if we go back and we talk about like, can you recover without, um, therapy, I would say yes, as long as you understand your condition and you understand the tricks that.
Uh, so easy to get caught up in. Do you have any like feedback or thoughts on that?
Nathan: Yeah, I think it’s being very clear on what do I expect recovery to look like, so I know what the outcome is going to be. Mm. Um, because a lot of people might say, I’m doing exposure and response prevention and it’s not working.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: And you might have to go through like, what do you mean it’s not working? Like what, do you have an expectation that maybe isn’t? Attainable. Mm-hmm. Um, are you expecting an all or nothing thing? Uh. It, it’s for, for me, I try to have people outline this is, this is what I’m looking for. Um, is it possible?
Yeah. And sometimes we don’t know. We don’t know what it’s gonna look like at the end of all this. We just know the person wants to get better. They want to feel better.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: And I think for me, I tell people, let’s not have really any expectations. We’re just doing the work. And we’ll see what happens.
Because if you’re having. If I had a headache and I’m like, okay, I need to drink a lot of water, I’m gonna be thinking about, okay, did that make my headache go away? No, it didn’t. So maybe I need to like go do some stretching. Did that make my headache go away? Okay, maybe I need to take some ibuprofen. Oh, did that make my headache go away?
I’m, I’m signaling my brain back to checking how I’m feeling, how I’m feeling, how I’m feeling, and I might be disappointed each time because I’m still having a headache. Maybe I wouldn’t notice it as much if I were just like, you know what? I don’t know if the headache’s gonna go away, but I’m just gonna keep doing what I wanna do and go, go live my life.
And maybe it’s still there in the background. I just didn’t really notice it because I’m not expecting it to go away. I’m just living life. I’m doing the things I want to do.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. You bring up a really good point too, which is if you’re constantly looking at the end goal, I. You’re, you’re, you’re creating a lot of anxiety around that, right?
So I think it is like a lot of the work here is whether, you know, whether you are in therapy or not, is the recovery is like just taking baby steps and staying very present and like you said, really getting good at being uncertain and not trying to figure all those things out. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Okay, so, um. Let’s talk about, we’ve already talked about this in general, but I really want to just go through what are some of the reasons people would choose online self-help or workbooks over therapy? What are some of the limitations or the restrictions or people have about going to therapy?
Nathan: I, you brought up a good point earlier is that therapy is expensive.
Uh, it’s, it’s one of those things that like, I am paying money, um, and I have to keep going back to, to possibly see the results that I wanna see. ’cause it’s not all in one, one session where you’re gonna get everything you need. Um, that is one, one aspect. Another aspect, I think is, you know, we’re, we’re fortunate to, to have therapists here, you know, in, in the states, other countries.
I mean, there might be some mostly specialists, um, but it’s gonna be far and in between. Is that the phrase Q and far between? Yeah. There we go. And it’s one of those things that’s like, they might not have access to anything other than a YouTube video or a blog. And, and possibly in different countries too.
Like they might not even be able to afford, uh, our course. Um. That’s one of those things where I, I step up and try to help them the best that I can in that, just because it’s like I’m not making, I, I don’t need this course to make me money. I, I want people to get better and I don’t, I don’t care if I’m giving it for, for free to some people.
Like, I want you to get better and you’re probably never gonna have this opportunity. And I think that’s, that’s one thing that I feel joy in to, to help people with that. Um. I think we’re some people kinda shifting a little bit. People are looking up like, how can I get better from OCD or success stories?
And I think it’s, you can run into people who are like, I have OCD myself and I fully recovered and take my course and I’ll, you’ll never have. And it’s like, that’s not the course that I want. Because if you’re selling your OCD story, as the, as the recovery for everybody else, um. Yeah. That’s not, it’s not the place you wanna be.
No. You, you actually want realistic. Here’s a treatment from a therapist. Here’s clear expectations that, um, take you from step A to step Z and, um, see if it works. See if it helps you. Yeah. But if, if somebody’s selling a, a course that’s like, you’ll recover the, for me, I get some red flags that are being thrown up because you want to be realistic and, and honest.
Yeah,
Kimberley: no, I agree. And again, it’s, it’s so, uh, I actually was talking on another podcast. Um, I was a, a guest and they were asking a question like this, and I had said to them that, um, there are people telling you really loudly that you can recover, like that this is your, it’s a one stop shop. You can get it done.
And I think that the, the concern around that is. Um, we, the people who have OCD are pretty vulnerable. They’re pretty scared. They’re pretty hopeless. They may have depression as well, and it’s so easy to be like, yes, that is exactly what I want. And I remember, um, I had a business coach who did like an audit of my, my website.
I redid my website this year and, um, someone did an audit of it before and they were like, here’s my notes for you. Like. There is nothing here that tells me what the payoff is. Like nothing here tells me what their end goal or there’s this special word for it. And I was like, yeah, that’s on purpose. Like I, I don’t, there’s, I don’t want, I can’t promise them that.
And he’s like, well, but you’re not gonna sell anything if you don’t. You need to give them a guarantee. Like, what exactly are they? Feel when they finish your course. And I was like, uh, educated.
Nathan: Yeah.
Kimberley: I think they’ll feel educated. Um, they’ll feel empowered. Hopefully they feel understood. But I can’t promise you your symp again, I can’t, I can’t deliver something like, um, you know, I’ll teach you how to play, um, you know.
A song on the piano, like I can’t promise you that, but whereas some people are, which always concerns me. Um, if you were, let’s say, if you were considering, and this is please Nathan, don’t feel like you have to like give a definitive answer to this, is if you were considering a non-specialized OCD therapist, so non-specialized therapist or a, or a course, what would you encourage people to take?
Nathan: Uh. I do want people to take a course that is from a licensed specialist. Yes. Um, some licensed specialists do have OCD themselves, and they can, you know, share that wisdom as well with it. Um, but for some, I, I’ve run into plenty who, who have OCD and, and like, that’s their selling point. It’s like, I have OCD, so take my course.
Um, and I did it. Um. But yeah, that, that makes me nervous. That makes me nervous.
Kimberley: Okay, so let’s go through it. If, if you did not have the resources to access specialized OCD treatment, um, whether that be the distance or the money or the a access, um, we, what we’re sort of like, we’re sort of off the cuff prioritizing here.
So you would say as course from a licensed OCD specialist. Over talk therapy?
Nathan: Yes. Okay. Uh, you know, just a, even like a generalist therapist? Yeah. Oh man. That’s a tough one. I think tough can make you, they can make you feel good, but if they don’t know what OCD is, you might just be going in circles with.
What you’re experiencing, maybe things are worse because they’re reassuring you over and over and over again. Um, without knowing it, you know, I don’t blame ’em for it, but, uh, yeah, for me, I would wanna know like, this is the treatment and maybe I share that with my generalist therapist. This is what I’m doing.
What do you think? Um, yeah. Yeah.
Kimberley: I agree. I would say if you had a general talk therapist or a course, but you had access to a general therapist, is there a way even you could marry the two? So say I have this workbook, even if you got it at like the secondhand, you know, Goodwill, right? Or you bought it used.
Can we go through this workbook? Together, or can we go through this course? I bought this course. I always say to clients like, if you wanna give access to your therapist, go ahead. Like mm-hmm. So you can do it together. Okay, good. Um, let, and, and you’re saying if you’re gonna take a course, how would someone determine a good course?
Nathan: A good course? Uh, look to see if they’re a specialist. If they’re licensed. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe they don’t have to be licensed, but they’re not selling. Full recovery. I have the method, everyone else is doing it wrong, and I’ve got it here and it’s my special thing. And it’s like, I’ve seen some like that.
They’re like, mine is special. And it’s like there’s no, there’s no special. It’s like the treatment’s, the treatment.
Kimberley: Yep.
Nathan: Um, so finding a course that’s like. If this person is licensed, um, maybe I can research them to see do they have other articles? Can I read what they’re about? Do they have videos? You know, I know we have videos.
Um, I just learn about this person, see if I can trust like what they’re saying. Yeah. Um, we’re all about education. So my core, if there’s someone selling this is educational to me, that’s better than you’ll fully recover. Um. Because I think that’s kind of the ethical way to do it is, is like you, you’re gonna learn a lot of stuff.
You can do what we’re, what we’re teaching. Um, but I’m not telling like, you have to do this to get better.
Kimberley: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. That’s so helpful. Okay, let’s talk about some research. In preparation for today, and I had seen this, uh, elsewhere, I was doing some research on the effectiveness of unguided self-help programs for OCD.
There is a research that is a meta-analysis and it is of randomized controlled trials, which is very high level standard of research. And they found, I’m gonna read it directly just ’cause I don’t, I don’t wanna kill it here. So it says 12 randomized control trials found that unguided self-help interventions had a significant moderate effect on reducing OCD severity compared to control groups.
Now that is just, again, more than just our opinions, that’s proving that self-help interventions are very, very helpful for people with OCD. What I thought was interesting is it goes on to say the effect held in sensitivity analysis, the effect held in sensitivity analysis, but dropped in clinical ratings.
Importantly, dropout rates were higher. In self-help groups, especially from community samples and CBT interventions. So let’s talk about, um, why do we think the dropout rates were higher? So that basically the research is saying like, yes, they do work, they are helpful, they can be very, very beneficial. Um, um, but the dropout rates are high.
What can we take from that? Why is that the case?
Nathan: I, I’m wondering. This therapy is not easy to do. No. You know, exposure and response prevention when someone’s saying, let’s go face your fear, and I’m doing that over video, like, I want you to write down all your fears and we’re gonna go face them and here’s how you can do it.
Like. There’s gonna be so many questions in somebody’s mind. Like, am I doing this right? Um, should I be doing this? Do people normally do this? Is this okay for me to do? Maybe I’ll just wait to see a therapist. I’m not sure. Um, I think there’s a lot of. You know, for OCD there’s a lot of education that needs to come before someone does some therapy.
Yeah. Of like, this is OCD, this is why we do the treatment. You have to have complete faith that this is something that you need to be doing, even if you’re not a hundred percent sure. Yeah. Um, because it’s gonna feel horrible realistically. Yeah. And so to not have that cheerleader as a therapist, to be like, I know this is tough, but like, let’s do it.
Um. And maybe give some reassurance actually that like, yes, this is actually the thing we need to be doing. Um, I could see people dropping out of, I guess, a self-help course just because they’re unsure or they’re, they’re not confident. In it and they’re like, Nope, I’m not. Maybe there’s other methods for me ’cause I don’t wanna go face my fears too.
Yeah. If maybe if they don’t have enough knowledge about the treatment.
Kimberley: Yeah, and I think, I mean, to be honest, I haven’t got the research here, but I think that that’s also true of ERP in general, right? Like, you know, even my clients, I can be as best as I can and I can show up and support them and be there on time and give them the same education.
But some people just. Don’t wanna do that work or they’re not ready to do that work. So I wonder if we even looked at research for OCD therapy, ERP and therapy if the dropout rates would also be higher. Yeah, that would, I mean that’s, that’s me. I have no research to back that,
Nathan: but
Kimberley: I’m just saying that as a maybe possibility.
Nathan: And I’m also curious, just as like a, just ’cause we’re human. I buy courses that are like business courses and other things. It’s like I don’t go all the way through it. Like I’ll watch a video or two. And so would that be considered me dropping out of it? Because I, I bought a course, I didn’t do it.
Kimberley: You’re right, you’re right.
There’s,
Nathan: I think there’s so many vari variabilities. Yes. I, I’ll have to look at the research, but, and also like whose course. Did they use Yeah. For it? Yeah. Was the course accurate? Did it give enough information? Um, you know, I, I don’t know. Yeah. Was there seven people that they did in the whole study? Like, I guess I’ll have to look at it, but, um, I think just, even just human nature, like life is so busy and just to sit there on a computer and like watch, I don’t know how many hours of video and Yeah.
Do worksheets, like mine’s an
Kimberley: eight hour course.
Nathan: Yeah.
Kimberley: Yeah. It’s not for sissies, right? So Yeah, for sure. What’s interesting is, and I’ll share this, and I think you and I are on the same platform, the way we te teach our courses. We use the same uh, com, you know, uh uh. Internet, I don’t know how you call company platform.
Yeah, it was, I just redid my OCD course. I’m trying to redo all of them and we actually just gamified it, so mm-hmm. To try and help with that because I’m not someone who looks at data. But again, I had a, someone audit my business and he was like. What are your dropout rates or what are your completion rates?
I think he called it and I was like, I don’t know, like I haven’t looked. And we looked and completion rates were pretty good, but they were saying like, okay, if you really want to help people, you wanna get them to finish that course. Like how can we get them to finish that course? So we gamified it. So now you get a little badge.
I mean, it’s not like you win money or anything, but they do get a badge when they finish certain modules and stuff. And for me, if I’m gonna get a badge. Even if it means absolutely nothing, I’m gonna finish that course so I can press the button to say Mark mm-hmm. Is as completed. So I can get that. Of course.
So I don’t know if that’s also a piece of it, right? Like how can we gamify, because treatment’s a little gamified, like I gamify treatment a little. Like, you know, let’s set a goal and if you can reach this goal, we can, we’ll go out, you know, you can go out and get, you know. That thing that you’ve been really wanting or whatever.
Um, so I think that that also plays a role in it.
Nathan: Yes. I, I love that. It’s one of those things that’s like, we have to keep building motivation throughout life and that’s everything. To continue something, even if we enjoy it, like we still have to find time to make ourselves do it.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: Um. I love that, that the gamify ’cause there is, there’s something with that.
Um, I, I talked to some people who are, they’re mean, they’re like millionaires. I mean, they own huge companies and they would play games fighting over like something that’s like a dollar. Yeah. But it’s just like they are so in it and they’re so competitive to like win that one little $1 thing. And it’s just like.
You could buy billions of these things. Like why are you spending this time to do this? And I think it just shows how we are as human beings like. Yeah. Yeah. Even it’s just a little badge. Yeah. It’s enough sometimes too. Yeah. To make it happen.
Kimberley: And I, and I would say even let’s say if you’re taking a workbook is try to gamify it yourself.
I think that that helps with. Keeping the motivation up and keeping you in the game. I’ve had to do that with courses that I’m taking not related to recovery. Um, let’s say it’s a course on, you know, I’m, I’m now starting to run, so I’m taking like running trainings and it’s like I have to like, give myself, break it down into small baby pieces and give rewards for every time I do it.
So, um, absolutely. I think that is a huge piece of, you know, keeping people moving through. Um, you have mentioned this already, but I wanted to talk about like, is there a particular way you structure your course, um, to help, um, what’s the word? Like cre increase the effectiveness of the course. Like what, what is it that people, what is it about courses that can make it helpful to get through and finish it and, and get recovery from the course?
Nathan: Yeah, I have my structured, so I’ve got three parts. One of them is, you know, education, so this is what you need to know about ocd. This is how it works. Um, this is why we do treatment. Then it goes into, you know, if you were to come into my office, here’s how you’re creating your own exposures, essentially.
Yeah. Um, here’s how to choose the right ones, things like that. And then it’s maintenance. So the third part is all about maintaining the progress that you’ve already made. Um, ’cause I think that’s one aspect that’s missed quite a lot is like, you know, we don’t go to the gym to, to get really fit and then just be like, I’m good.
I never have to go back again. Like, I might have to keep going to, to. Maintain the progress that I’ve made. Um, but I have, I think it’s 42 modules of just like, here’s a video, here’s, you know, not everyone has a worksheet, but here’s a worksheet that you can use to, um, actually each one has a journal as well to help you think about, you know, what did you learn in this video?
So, what did you learn? Um, how can you, how does it apply to your OCD? Um. So it’s not just like, lemme go to the next video and go to the next video. Like there’s tasks to, to complete. Yeah. What I do find, so, because I can see, you know, which videos are people watching, um, I do see a lot of people skip right to the treatment piece.
And I’m curious like maybe you already have all the knowledge or you just wanna get better immediately. Um, but yeah, it, I, I totally get that. But like the, the information is so important. Yeah. I, I try to make it as, as quick as possible. It was like, here’s a video, here’s a journal that you can use for each one.
And um, yeah, let’s, let’s do this thing and here’s how often you can do it. And. Um, build support. ’cause I, I want people talking to their spouse or their friend or someone they can text to be like, I’m gonna go do this exposure and I need you to text. I’m gonna text you when I do it. Or if you see me on the couch and it’s 12 o’clock and I said I was gonna do it at 12, like, let me know.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: Um, I think that keeps people motivated through that as well.
Kimberley: For sure. I love the idea of the journal. That’s really cool. ’cause that’s a part of therapy, right? Like reflecting on what worked and what didn’t work and what your thoughts were. I agree with the education piece, like do not skip it. In fact, I think it’s a big reason why sometimes people’s actual face-to-face therapy.
Doesn’t go well is they haven’t spent enough time just actually understanding their disorder and the function and how it tricks you and, um, why you get stuck. I think that’s huge. So, um, I, I believe that the education, like I’m somebody if I understand something. I can pretty well initiate things, right?
Like, but I have to understand it first. That’s just the way that my brain and I usually need to like see a visual of it. And so I think that that’s, it’s also depend maybe dependent on how you learn. If you’re someone who really needs that, sort of needs to understand it to move forward, then these will be great options for you.
Whereas I do think, let’s say you have a coexisting condition, um. Co like coexisting eating disorder, coexisting, you know, e um, depression. That is one of the benefits of therapy is they can help you pull those pieces apart, um, and differentiate the different treatments for those different conditions.
Nathan: Yeah, because what do you work on first? And sometimes just for ourselves, we’re not gonna know, you know what? For me, it’s like, what’s interfering in life the most? Yeah. Maybe it’s depression, maybe it’s OCD, anxiety stresses with work, you know, there’s, there’s more than OCD most of the time for, for people.
Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Kimberley: If someone’s taking a course, they don’t have access to therapy or maybe they’ve had therapy and they’re no longer in therapy ’cause maybe they can’t afford it, um, and they’re having a setback. What advice would you give them? Or if they’ve dropped out, like what advice would you give them?
Yeah.
Nathan: I, I have people use these opportunities as like learning, like let’s learn something from like what, what happened in life? Um, you stressed with the work, you’re on social media a lot more than you used to be, and now it’s, you realize you’re more stressed. Like, um, let’s take care of just life first.
Things that you can control. Yeah. And if you can’t go back to a therapist, maybe ’cause for the finances or you don’t feel like it’s the right time. I think that’s where our courses actually can be beneficial is like, I can always go back and just watch a video. Yeah. See if I can bring more motivation to myself.
Um, and I find that, like, I think I have, I’ve had my course, I don’t know, maybe five years now and. People are still logging in. Yeah. And it’s like, so you’re going back to this five years later and you probably know ’em all by heart, but like it’s enough to possibly bring you back into
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: Some motivation and
Kimberley: Yeah,
Nathan: just remembering what, what to do.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. And I think, um, I think the first thing is also too, to recognize that setbacks happen in therapy too. It’s actually a normal part of, mm-hmm. Process. So I’ve had people reach out and say, I’ve had a full on relapse. I was doing so well. I think I need to go back and have therapy now.
I’m never going to discourage someone to go back to therapy, but I often will first say, have you given yourself a chance to just get back to the. Practices that you were doing, like don’t make rash decisions from a compulsive place. Like usually it’s just going back to basics, um, which I think is so important.
Um, I will also say. And I don’t know, Nathan, if you have had this case as well, is people who the, the main reason, and I’ll laugh at this, I’ll be very honest with everyone. I try to be as honest as can. Every now and then I will get someone request a refund. Mm-hmm. And it’s because they’ve identified that they’ve bought the COL course.
As a compulsion. Oh yeah. They’ll say, I’m, I’m so sorry. I don’t wanna have to like, I have a refund policy. It’s not a problem. But they’ll say, I’m so sorry I have to ask for a refund because my purchase was 100% compulsive. Like, I know what to do, I know how to do it. Maybe there, you know, but I panicked and I thought that maybe this was the missing key to my recovery and I bought your course and now I’m realizing I.
That was a bad decision. Um, I always love when I get those emails, I always thank them for their honesty. ’cause I think that is, we can sometimes use these, um, you know, self-help courses compulsively as well.
Nathan: Mm-hmm. I, I, I do the same thing when, you know, I wake up and there’s a 2:00 AM purchase. I’m like, uhoh, we’ll see.
Um, but, but I the same thing. It’s just like, I’m grateful. Yeah. For them to even just like recognize that. Yeah. And um, and I like what you said earlier is like, you know, even though we have courses, I don’t think we’re discouraging anybody to like, go actually see a therapist. No. Um, because. To me, people will send me emails like, should I go see a therapist or should I go do your course?
And for me it’s like, go see a therapist.
Kimberley: Yeah.
Nathan: Um, a specialist, um, or both. Like that’s an option too, where as long as we’re, we’re both teaching the same thing, which if you’re seeing a specialist, we are, yeah. Most of the time, um, they can be helpful and. And so I think for someone who’s like, don’t go see a therapist, take my course.
And it was like Red flags. Red flags, yeah, for sure.
Kimberley: And to be honest, I have found that one, it’s actually something that my supervisor taught me when I was early in OCD treatment, and he said I had to actually hear it from several people before it sunk in. Like he said that he said, he was talking about, you know, changing different therapists.
And I remember thinking and having students tell me like. I actually have had a therapist tell me exactly what you’ve said before. It’s nothing that I’d said that was specifically beautifully articulated, it’s that they just needed to hear it a second time for it to just get really solid and be like, okay, two people I trust, let’s go.
Like I know what to do now. Yes. So I think that there’s benefit to, to having, you know, again, it doesn’t have to be a course, it could be a workbook, it could be, um, you know, a YouTube video that you’ve heard and so forth.
Nathan: Yes. I think just multiple people saying the same thing, like that builds motivation.
It’s like, Kayla, there must be something with this.
Kimberley: Yes, yes, yes. Amazing. Okay, Nathan, tell us where I, I, number one, I will say I’m so grateful to have this conversation. It’s a little wacky, right? That we are having, you know, we’re talking about the pros and cons to things, but I think it’s beneficial to know that there is no one.
Right way to recover. Um, and even I really want people to have some hope that even if they don’t have access to therapy, that there are very, very good ways that you can make steps in the right direction. Tell us, um, number one, is there anything else you wanna mention? And number two, can you tell us what people can find you?
Nathan: Yeah, I people can get better. I think that’s one of those things that like I. Love this treatment because people actually get better and they live their life. And if you’re considering treatment or if you, you’re not sure if you should do it, it’s like just. Do it. Yeah. Like just do it and you don’t have to know why.
Exactly. Like if it’s gonna work or whatever, it’s like, just do it. ’cause a lot of people at the end of it are just like, I’m so glad that I did. Yeah. Um, or those who waited 10 years were like, I should have done this earlier. Yeah. Um, I tell people like, you have to have faith that this is. Gonna be something that’s going to possibly change your life, but you’re just not gonna see it.
That’s what faith is all about. You’re not gonna see it until you get to the other side. Um, you just do it and yeah, I know I make it sound easy. Just, just do it. But it’s, it’s worth it. Um, yeah. And yeah. Isn’t
Kimberley: that true of anything in life though? Like. It that it’s the doing the hard things and just doing the hard things that usually give us the best benefit.
I know that’s for true for me. Like the, the hardest things in my life have always been the most rewarding in some way. Um, I don’t know if you agree with that or not.
Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And if you’re waiting for motivation, you’re gonna wait a long time. Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta do it, even if you’re not motivated to do it.
Yeah. Um, or, or waiting for the right time. Because there often isn’t a right time. You just go and, yeah. Wait, people, people can find me. I, I have YouTube channel. It’s called OCD and Anxiety, pretty unique name. Um, but yeah, I’ve been creating videos for a few years now and it’s just, it’s fun. It’s fun to do just to like, come up with new topics and, and.
Hopefully relate to what people are going through and give little nuggets of truth, I guess, of like, this is what we do, this is what we do, hopefully to build some motivation for treatment.
Kimberley: Great. Um, is there any way they can find your courses?
Nathan: Yeah, my course is at, um, oc dx anxiety.com.
Kimberley: Amazing. And
Nathan: yeah, got a few courses, depression, got one for OCD and family and, um, BRBs even.
Hair pulling, skin picking. Which you do too.
Kimberley: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for the work that you do. It’s, it’s a refreshing, especially to have like-minded people who genuinely want to help and are doing it in a way that, um, I think is really respectful, um, and ethical and, and kind. Um, so thank you.
Nathan: Yeah. Thank you so Can You Recover from OCD WITHOUT Therapy? Let’s Talk Truth (with Nathan Peterson)much for, for having me talk about this stuff ’cause I love it.
Kimberley: Yeah. The moral of the story is yes, you can, you can recover without therapy. It takes some motivation, it takes some time, it takes some dedication, um, and some education. Um, but absolutely don’t give up. Okay. Thank you everybody for being here.
And thank you again, Nathan.
Nathan: Yeah, thank you.
